The other day I was thinking of how the world system of greed is ingrained in the American culture (sometimes called the “American Dream”) through the use of the tenets of capitalism. Think about it, if it wasn’t for greed capitalism wouldn’t work nearly as good as it has for over 250 years. Yet, capitalism, for a Christian, can be extremely toxic to one’s faith of trusting in Christ alone. Fast forward… I then saw the video posted below from a Mr. Friedman on the Donahue show from some years ago. I found his analysis penetrating and convincing in regard to the system we have is the best thus far in the history of the world. Now, how does this mesh with a Biblical worldview? Is capitalism the best we can hope for and does it use a type of positive greed to promote the greater good? In a day of rising socialism in the form of “stimulus” I find this subject fascinating. One aspect of this subject I have been considering is how the government is a mechanism used by God by which the Christian can be in a system built on greed (capitalism) and yet not be fundamentally stained by it.
In other words, Christians didn’t create this system, we just abide by its dynamic without the nasty after-taste of getting more for the sake of getting more (a.k.a. idolatry). We “get ahead” through faithfully working for the glory of God and the by-product is being blessed by acquiring wealth through common grace. Our acquiring of wealth is not wrong or intrinsically sinful yet the system in which we attained this wealth is “worldly.” This system is built on the motivating dynamic of greed. I am curious to know your thoughts and to have this explanation/understanding tested through this online community.
I always love a good smack-down.
On what basis do you call the system itself worldly?
I was forwarded this blog from a friend of mine who attends the church and have decided to weigh in from Kansas City.
First of all, I somewhat reject the premise that the necessary ingredient of capitalism is greed. In my view, capitalism is freedom. Freedom to act and empower the individual to perform God’s will. Now – in my opinion, that is where capitalism too often breaks down. The secular world views capitalism as get as much, make as much, spend as much, live as large as you desire. The Bible talks extensively about how individuals should
a) work hard and reap what you sow
b) save for the future
c) give to the church, less fortunate, widows and orphans, etc
d) invest your talents (the lesson on the talons) which can be money or actual skills
but at the same time, talks extensively about the trap money and greed can provide as some may then peerseive they don’t need God in their lives.
I absolutely reject the notion that government is a mechanism placed by God to prevent people from being stained by capitalism. In my opinion, Government’s main purpose is to protect its people from enemies. And I define enemies as other people, not poverty, etc. I believe the family and on a grander scale the Church is the mechanism used by God to a) help teach people how to live within a free society (and hold them accountable) and b) take care of those stricken with disease, poverty, etc.
Of course some (many do) abuse the freedom associated with capitalism – that’s the consequences of free will. But as Friedman says – tell me which society doesn’t have greed and show me which society works better than a capitalistic one.
Just my humble opinion.
Brian from Kansas City
Winston Churchill said that “democracy is the worst form of government except all the others that have been tried.” I think the same goes for capitalism…
Very interesting topic. It’s hard to argue Dr. Friedman’s position on Capitalism in my opinion. Theoretically, in order for Capitalism to work in a “perfect” model requires a unending pursuit of profit (or as was described, greed). The question for me becomes, to what degree can I fully embrace Capitalism and maintain my standards as a follower of Christ. I recently had a conversation with a friend that has stuck with me. He indicated that he would charitably give at some point in the future when he’s paid off his debt and his business was thriving. He anticipated that to be in three years. I was a little taken aback and asked what he would do if his business didn’t thrive?! Under a Capitalistic, pursuit of profit model, his position almost makes sense. Instead of self interest pursuit, he would invest in a profitable business that would make more money and ultimately help more people. But it does NOT line up with the Character of Christ and the requirements of a Believer of Christ. Christians are called to “excel” in everything but not at the cost of our pursuit of holiness.
So I guess that I would hope and pray that my motives and standards are no different living in a Capitalistic society than if I was in a Socialistic culture. Obviously, scripture warns us that a love of money is a root of evil and those temptations are greater for Americans than in most societies. That’s why I’d have to ask myself the question of whether I fully adhere to the theory of Capitalism. I love, respect and give thanks for being born an American but I probably need to constantly keep in check my financial motives living in the incredibly prosperous county we’ve been afforded. If I’m constantly pursuing profit and missing out on opportunities to pursue Christ’ interest for my life (use of my abilities and money for furthering Christ’s work, saving, working hard), then I got a REAL problem and will be judged mightily for it.
Welcome to the discussion, Brian from Kansas City. If you don’t mind, I would like to ask you several questions to help me understand your point of view. I apologize ahead of time if I have misunderstood you. The answers to these questions will help me greatly.
First, you said, “I somewhat reject the premise that the necessary ingredient of capitalism is greed.”
Question: Could you tell me what the fundamental and necessary ingredient (a.k.a. motivation) in capitalism is for a person who is not a follower of Christ?
Second, you said, “I absolutely reject the notion that government is a mechanism placed by God to prevent people from being stained by capitalism.”
Question: Could you please tell me what is the force behind our Country employing the tenets of capitalism? In other words, if God is not the one who has willed this for our Country at this time in history then who has?
Three, you said, “I believe the family and on a grander scale the Church is the mechanism used by God to a) help teach people how to live within a free society (and hold them accountable) and b) take care of those stricken with disease, poverty, etc.”
Question: Is it your contention that the we should employ a type of communal arrangement in society with the Church functioning as the centerpiece in the distribution of resources?
Question: Could you tell me what the fundamental and necessary ingredient (a.k.a. motivation) in capitalism is for a person who is not a follower of Christ?
Answer – the key motivation is to provide for yourself and your family.
Question: Could you please tell me what is the force behind our Country employing the tenets of capitalism? In other words, if God is not the one who has willed this for our Country at this time in history then who has?
Answer – I’m not sure I understand the question. What has God willed? Are you saying God has willed capitalism? I don’t know if he has or not. I do believe he has blessed this country with religious, economic and many other freedoms — and to whom much is given, much is required.
Question: Is it your contention that the we should employ a type of communal arrangement in society with the Church functioning as the centerpiece in the distribution of resources?
Answer: You’ve made this sound more grandiose than what I would have intended. Are you suggesting that is the role of government today? I won’t be able to adequately address this here but in short, I believe capitalism is the center piece for distributing resources. The beauty of capitalism is if there is a need, someone will attempt to satisfy that need for economic gain. And capitalism usually finds the most efficient means possible to accomplish that. However, in the short term, capitalism can also be or at least appear cruel. It’s survivalist of the fittest. Some people will win (and win big) while others will lose – requiring those individuals to re-tool, try a new approach, transition to something else. It’s during these times when I believe the family and Church ought to be there to “support” rather than the government.
Great clip!
The thing that Donahue and those like him miss is man’s fallen nature. When it comes to greed, lust for more and more “stuff”, etc. the issue is not the system in which we operate, the issue is our own sinful hearts.
I’m currently reading “The Gulag Archipelago” by Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn and he contends that the driving force behind those who joined the State Security apparatus, tortured people and sent them to concentration camps was greed, greed for power, greed for the possessions of those they arrested, etc. Speaking of these people he says: “The passion for gain was their universal passion.”
The assumption among capitalism’s detractors is that the state is more compassionate, more caring, more efficient than individuals acting out of their own best interest. History however does not allow us to hold this position. In every case where the state has come to hold all the cards with regard to property, allocation of resources, etc. death and destruction have followed, often on a staggering scale.
As Hugh pointed out, capitalism may not be perfect but its certainly better than the alternative. I even think there is a Biblical argument to be made on behalf of capitalism. It seems to me that things like “Thou shalt not steal” and “Thou shalt not covet” presume private property. Also, as Brian points out, the God-ordained role for government is to maintain order and promote justice, not manage the economy.
Brian, thanks for helping me understand your perspective. I would like to know more about how you view the role of the Church in supporting the needs of people in a capitalistic society. You said,
So, I would like to ask you how you would approach the following situation. As you may know, a woman by the name of Nadya Suleman has recently given birth to eight children. Miss Suleman already had six children and the following is an account of her story:
Brian my question to you is (based on your previous answer regarding your view that it is the Church and not the government’s responsible to “support” people in need in our society), does the Church have a God-given responsibility to provide for the needs of Miss Suleman?
BTW. I am sure you would agree that to not fulfill a God-given responsibility would be sinful.
Hey Dan, that’s Miss Suleman.
Hey Brian, welcome … and don’t let Dan intimidate you. It’s discussions like these that get people thinking through these important issues.
(Donahue always came on after Captain Kangaroo so my mom would turn it off.)
Thanks Guiroo!
The Miss Suleman case is unfortunate. However don’t miss my point. From my original post, I wrote –
I absolutely reject the notion that government is a mechanism placed by God to prevent people from being stained by capitalism. In my opinion, Government’s main purpose is to protect its people from enemies. And I define enemies as other people, not poverty, etc. I believe the family and on a grander scale the Church is the mechanism used by God to a) help teach people how to live within a free society (and hold them accountable) and b) take care of those stricken with disease, poverty, etc.
In Miss Suleman’s case, I believe first her family, then HER church (if she attends one) should bear the responsibility. And when they no longer can, there are other organization’s (Salvation Army, United Way, etc) that can provide assistance and aid. The last resort should be government aid.
I have a different take. I think, and see in the bible, that prosperity can be toxic for community and the acceptance of the gospel. I think capitalism is less corrupt than other economic systems in that it spreads prosperity around to those who earn it, but the fruit it yields is killing us spiritually. That is why it is easier for a camel pass through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter the kingdom.
Capitalism has made everyone in this country so self sufficient that we can’t recognize our real need. We have equated comfort with blessing and pain for condemnation. We instead need to see the gospel as a blessing and the just penalty of our sins for condemnation.
The idea has also bled into other areas and has made every decision into a cost benefit analysis. Things are no longer valued for what they are but how much they cost us. So all relationships are tarnished by our selfishness.
I don’t have any better ideas but the benevolent monarchy that is to come.
Brian,
We know her family has already said that they cannot support this latest venture by their daughter (according to the news reports) and let’s assume Miss Suleman doesn’t attend a local Church. Does the Church still have the Biblical responsibility to support her in providing for her material needs? This would seem to be the case based on your previous comment:
“I believe the family and on a grander scale the Church is the mechanism used by God to a) help teach people how to live within a free society (and hold them accountable) and b) take care of those stricken with disease, poverty, etc.”
P.S. I assume you don’t believe The Salvation Army and United Way are “the Church.”
Also, I am not sure what you meant regarding the role of the Church in a free society to “hold people accountable.” Could you clarify as to what you meant by that?
This is such a difficult and dynamic topic, but I do hope that in some small way that this discussion will be helpful for our readers.
I think its important to differentiate between “the church” meaning a local congregation that is formally organized with a bank account and a check book and “the church” as in all those individuals who have been redeemed.
Much charitable work in the past was done by “the church” as described in the second instance above. The orphanages of George Muller in Great Britain are an excellent example. This was not “The First Baptist Church” of somewhere writing checks but a Christian individual taking seriously God’s command to care for the poor and needy.
“The church” as in a formally organized local body of believers can certainly be involved on an as needed basis helping people in crisis but their role is not to be society’s safety net, their role is to preach the Gospel and make disciples.
However, when a local body takes seriously its call to make disciples, there will be Christians among them who do the things that George Muller and others have done – take steps to help the poor and needy on an on-going basis. These things don’t have to be (and should not be in my opinion) a formal ministry of a local church.
Dan –
You said –
We know her family has already said that they cannot support this latest venture by their daughter (according to the news reports) and let’s assume Miss Suleman doesn’t attend a local Church. Does the Church still have the Biblical responsibility to support her in providing for her material needs? This would seem to be the case based on your previous comment:
In your original post, you made this statement …
One aspect of this subject I have been considering is how the government is a mechanism used by God by which the Christian can be in a system built on greed (capitalism) and yet not be fundamentally stained by it.
I disagreed. I thought the mechanishm used by God is the family and the church. You noted her family has opted out and she does not attend church. Therefore, the question is … is the Church, meaning believers nation wide, responsible for her situation. That is a difficult question but believe the answer is no … unless if God is specifically calling one to assist. The sad reality is people will make decisions and actions that will result in negative consequences for themselves and others. I do not believe the Church is responsible for those actions or consequences unless otherwise directed by God himself.
Secondly, you asked …
Also, I am not sure what you meant regarding the role of the Church in a free society to “hold people accountable.” Could you clarify as to what you meant by that?
I’ll give you two examples. First, I am in a small group which consists of a group of men from my church. One of the men was struggling in his marriage and was considering divorce. He frankly saw no way out. Several members of the group were able to provide both Godly counsel during this period. The second example was when famed abortion doctor (Dr. George Tiller, Wichita, KS) was asked to leave the Lutheran Church he and his family faithfully attended as long as he continued performing abortions. The church he attended could not faithfully allow him to worship at their church knowing what he was doing (and wouldn’t stop doing) was wrong in the eyes of God. Both of these are examples of the Church holding people accountable to God’s laws.
There is not more virtuous form of society than capitalism. History has proven that capitalism is the best known foundation for a society. Capitalism allows free people to produce from their talents, giftings and hard work. You reap what you sow and this structure promotes creativity and expression. The problem is not in capitalism, it is in the human heart. This side of heaven we will never have a pure and completely virtuous society. It just will not happen with fallen man and our sinful disposition. We can get close to a utopia but it will never be what it was meant to be until we reach heaven. However, capitalism, despite it’s failures and shortcomings is by far the best form of society and allows for the most benefits to all man kind. Greed is always going to ruin good things and it is a desire we all must conquer.
The shift in our society from local organizations such as the church helping the needy in the communities is now being performed by a massive bureaucratic engine, the liberal US government. It all goes back to state run government versus federal. We all know that government is extremely inefficient and each state should have the ability to govern themselves in a more localized and efficient manner.
How far we have strayed from the time when people had strong ethics and a sense of pride in their efforts to make a better society. It was not just all about what we could get but rather about how we could positively impact our communities. I fear we will never go back and the continual greed of the world will just continue to worsen until Christ’s return.
I disagree with notion that Christians (Individuals within the universal church) don’t have a responsibility to help Miss Suleman and her children. Christians have a mandate to care for the poor. The bible refers this care for the poor as both a mercy issue and a justice issue.
It is a mercy issue because God gave up everything and become nothing to give us, who had nothing, everything. So it is a reflection of the gospel.
It is a justice issue because the children didn’t get themselves into his. You can hold the Father, using the term loosely, responsible, you can hold the mother responsible but you can’t say that the children are responsible.
O’Ryan, while I agree that Christians have a responsibility, do you think that Christians have a mandate (or, better, are commanded by Christ) to provide for the poor? I think this distinction better fits the overall thrust of this post regarding the role of the government and/or church in providing for the poor within a free-market system.
BTW. We discussed this at our Bible Study this morning and it was quite lively and helpful.
I apologize if I have ranged from the topic of the post. I regret that I could not make the bible study because I am neither helpful nor lively that early.
To your question; yes I do. I think it is a natural outflow of the gospel for Christians to provide for the poor.
I don’t think he needed to explicitly state it. The old testament provided for people who were in their communities to be provided for. The Jews had to leave the corners of their fields unharvested, and only pick the grapes from their vines once. In doing so, God showed grace for the poor with dignity and industry through his community.
I think we can disagree on the who, how, and what of providing for the poor, but I think living the gospel means providing for the needs of the poor.
I am informed in this by the following article:
http://www.thegospelcoalition.org/publications/33-3/the-gospel-and-the-poor