This post is a continuation of a discussion started in my When Blue Seemingly Goes Grey blog. In this blog we surfaced concerns regarding the upcoming prayer of Rick Warren at the Inauguration of now President Barack Obama. I am curious what are some of your perceptions post-prayer.
Since it’s my blog, I think it only right to offer up some of my own observations. First of all I am proud of Pastor Warren for standing strong in the face of such a pressure-packed situation. It was clear that this man was going to be a major lightning rod regardless of what he did from both sides of the fence. Isn’t there something to be said for a man facing this type of pressure in service to God?
Also, I am proud of Pastor Warren for standing on the premise of our need for God, our accountability before God, and that our request comes through and only by the grace of Messiah-Jesus. These are the initial perspectives I had when watching the speech. I am grateful that we serve the God who is so gracious and loving and thoroughly able to rescue a desperately needy people like us in this troubled time.
Thoughts?
I have no opinions. 😉
Given the level of expectation, I’m waiting to see what Larry has to say.
I thought his prayer started strong and ended strong, but was a little fuzzy in the middle. Overall, I thought it was good.
The fuzzy part, the part he could have left out, was the comment that there are some in heaven rejoicing over the inaguration of President Obama. While that may sound good, how can anyone in heaven rejoice over any man, or earthly king, in the presense of the King of Kings and a Holy God?
Actually, his comment was “shouting in heaven”. And one other correction above is…in the presence of the King of Kings…
Tim, my mind ran along the same lines as yours did. Although if I were praying I probably would have said several things that were fuzzy or goofy.
I do think that this now gives us an opportunity to think about what really does make heaven shout. The greatest reason for the heavens to burst with shouting is seen in Paul’s teaching in Ephesians 2:4-7:
Since the riches of God’s grace toward us in Christ Jesus are immeasurable, it will be the basis for our worship and the pinnacle of our expression of thankfulness in heaven. We will never exhaust His grace and, therefore, our praise will constantly be uncovering more dimensions of His grace forever. It’s like Christmas day every day and God’s grace expressed in Jesus is the present!
While it may be true that there is rejoicing in heaven it is not primarily over us, but over Him and the grace extended to us to be able to do the things we do.
So, on the one hand, I get the idea that Pastor Warren is communicating – this is good. However, I want to be quick to temper it with: “It is because of God’s grace that we can experience this good – thank you Jesus!”
Easily. The point was that MLK Jr’s dream is finally being realized and he would be overjoyed to see such an expression of racial equality and justice here on earth. He was faithful in his Christian calling to sacrificially sow the seeds and we are finally seeing the harvest of his labor.
And of course he will lay that crown down at the feet of Christ.
Guiroo, I understand the connection, and the significance of the moment that MLK Jr. would certainly appreciate. I also like the way you worded, “he will lay that crown down at the feet of Christ.”
However, that’s not what Rick Warren said. The statement he made assumes that those in heaven are conscious of what’s going on in the world and the event caused them to shout. It’s also odd to throw that in during a prayer. I can see that being relevant in a speech versus a prayer to God.
One question that comes to mind is if you’re in heaven in the presence of God do you really shout about earthly things? I would propose that you would be so amazed, overjoyed and overwhelmed by Him and his grace that earthly things would not compare or be worth shouting about.
It also begs the question, if you can experience joy in heaven over earthly things, could you not also experience sorrow over earthly things? People often say a family member is looking down over them or they are witnessing some event, but that assumes a lot.
I wonder if MLK Jr. would approve of Obama’s stance on certain moral issues like abortion. Is he shouting about that too?
Probably more of a poetic device for dramatic effect than a theological statement. Whether that is suitable for prayer is debatable. Was David wrong to refer to the arms of God in Psalm 139 when God is spirit and has no arms?
I think his delivery was odd in that section.
“I think his delivery was odd in that section.”
I agree. If he wanted to mention the historical significance, or reference that there were many who labored (like MLK Jr.) and many who would have loved to see this day, he could have done that before or after the prayer.
Or, he could have acknowledged God’s sovereignty over history, the civil rights movement and the struggle from slavery to freedom. He could have referenced Lincoln (his Bible was used), MLK Jr. and others God has used to prepare the way for this day. All the events leading to this special day were foreordained by God and so now we pray for Obama and his family, this country, etc.
Overall, he rightly acknowledged that there is one God, and God will hold us accountable for our actions. He also acknowledged Christ as Savior and I enjoyed the closing with the Lord’s Prayer.
As Dan referenced, in the same situation I would probably have messed up, got off track and prayed something goofy.
May we all pray for our President and our government leaders!
I’ve had a lot of thoughts about this and am still mulling them over at this point. However, one question I asked myself is why Warren felt it was OK to ask God’s forgiveness for our nation having harmed the environment but apparently felt it was not OK to ask His forgiveness for our murder of countless children?
Perhaps because that played better with the crowd.
He didn’t excluded it to only environmentalism but was an umbrella statement that includes the treatment of unborn humans as well.
“Easily. The point was that MLK Jr’s dream is finally being realized and he would be overjoyed to see such an expression of racial equality and justice here on earth. He was faithful in his Christian calling to sacrificially sow the seeds and we are finally seeing the harvest of his labor.
And of course he will lay that crown down at the feet of Christ.”
I know this is really late but….Just to go off of what David said earlier in the quote above and to side a bit with Tim… I don’t think the message of the Gospel is about racial equality. It is about sinners being forgiven. Yes, loving your brothers as yourself is a service of worship to God, but racial equality is not the not the mission of the church..redeeming lost souls is. In Heaven, skin tone and race will not be an issue anymore..who is there will be!
It seems to me the times mentioned in the Bible when Heaven rejoiced were when God made the earth and heavens, Christ was born, and when a lost sinner repents. It seems to me that it is not based on the accomplishments of man but on the work of God through creation and His plan of redemption; centered on Him…not MLK Jr.’s dream of racial equality, or an African American becoming President. Sort of like it is not mentioned (That I believe) heaven rejoicing in the freeing the Hebrew slaves from Egypt, or even when He made David (A person after his own Heart) king of Israel.
This may be an extremely bold statement for me to say, but I do believe that remark was thrown into the prayer to say in a nutshell, “I’m white and and a Christian, and what MLK Jr. did was a Godly thing, because he fought for us to be considerate of each other and to see each other as equal in God’s eyes. I agree that what he did was right and God is pleased with what MLK did…..So now that God is happy and pleased with this barrier being broken, lets all get along and drop the prejudice.”
That is something we may think, and something honestly, I can see myself saying if put in that position, being the people pleaser that I am and wanting those who are veterans to the cause to see that what they fought for was a noble cause 🙂 So, I can totally understand why he would pray that! But Heaven rejoicing..can we state that as Biblical truth? I think it’s just as truthful as saying that Martin Luther (Not MLK Jr.) would turn in his grave if he saw how his teachings have been changed in the Lutheran Church today.
BTW.. I enjoyed his prayer! When He said at the end of it the names of Jesus, I was beaming!!! I was very impressed at his courage and boldness! He really did a fantastic job in my eyes, especially given the pressure to preform through prayer.
Vicki, you aren’t suggesting that men like King and Wilberforce would have done “real Christian work” if they had remained preachers, are you?
I specifically said “his Christian calling” not “the Christian calling”. 🙂
Maybe I should have said “his God-given calling”.
David, sometimes on these blogs I’m not sure that what I’m saying is communicated well.
I think that is what could intimidate people like me to write. I write at the moment and later pray I didn’t sound like a know it all, because you and others who know me, know that I surely don’t! Actually, I’m a bit frazzled at times. 🙂
Needless to say, I enjoy having my brain pinched.
I think the focus of the prayer was on Barak becoming president and heaven rejoicing over what we have accomplished by having him, an African American, in office and in MLK Jr.s dream coming true.
First let me clarify somethings….
-I believe there is a big difference between God smiling at His Children doing acts of righteousness and all or part of heaven rejoicing over a matter. Worship there is so pure, we can’t touch it! Taking it lightly only reduces it to man-centered thinking and makes heaven all about us and our dreams, detracting from God.
-We are not called to have a concern for others souls when we take the title Pastor, that responsibility is given to those who chose to be a Christ follower, or a Christian. I do believe that God used people like King and Wilberforce to bring about justice, and sincerely think, He being sovereign, placed that burden on their hearts. (Was Wilberforce a Pastor? I didn’t know that, I thought he was a politician.) Needless to say, Justice and Mercy are things God wants of us. And I would dare to believe that God (Not all Heaven..I could be really wrong..but blogs are for opinions right?) smiles on such things when He allows them to be carried out.
-God sees not as man sees, if that were the case one of David’s brothers would have been chosen King over Israel instead. The people chose Saul to be King because they wanted one so desperately, and he appeared strong and his outside represented what they wanted. They rejoiced thinking this was a great godly thing. They later saw that God was not pleased with the heart of that King. Later, when Samuel was looking at David’s brother Eliab for the next king, thinking the same thought…Mmmm, impressive looking young man, perhaps this is the next king, (in 1 Samuel 16:6-7) God said, “Do not look at his appearance or at his physical stature, because I have refused him. For the Lord does not see as man sees; for the man looks at the outward appearance, but the Lord looks at the heart.” He then led him to David.
Before I say more I would ask of you, “Do you think Barak OBama becoming President was and act of justice, Mercy, or righteousness meriting Heaven’s applause? Or could we as a people have done what Israel did? Just some things to ponder.
Thanks the pinch back. 🙂 Wilberforce was personally torn between being a politician and becoming a pastor/preacher.
Honestly, to nitpick over this section of the prayer sounds like nitpicking Jeremiah 31:34. “Does God REALLY forget things? Come on Jerry, don’t minimize the greatness of God.”
Does God applaud on any act that man does in and of the act itself? No.
But if God “smiles on” or “applauds” the reflection of Himself in the example of justice that a non-100% white person can being afforded the same opportunity regardless of skin color, then yes, it merits Heaven’s smile or applause.
Pinch back: Would all Heaven applaud if President Obama signed a bill making abortion and any funding of international abortion illegal? The pro-life agenda is not the mission of the Church … redeeming lost souls is.
I agree with Vicki on the MLK thing. I read one commentator who said it speaks to the arrogance of American Christians that we would think all of heaven stops and rejoices because of who we have chosen as our leader at this particular point in our very short history on this planet.
In addition, it seemed to me that the references to MLK were made for the benefit of the crowd. Since prayers are to be spoken to God I really found it odd that he was addressing the crowd in this way.
Thanks for the pinch.
The Jeremiah passage…God is choosing to forget. To remember could mean..not to think on anymore, not to wave in front of your face just for leverage or guilt, or to remove from His mind..in either case, I think it is an argument for His greatness, because we as humans have a hard time doing that despite our new nature.
Would heaven had applauded O’Bama for signing the bill? I know I would have and it would have been an act of justice and mercy. As far as heaven? Again, I see no Biblical reference for it. Again the pro-life thing may not be the main mission of the church, but it is a reflection of the mission, and of how the Lord revers life..It is precious and each fetus has a soul; therefore, a soul worth sharing the Gospel with, and if a lost soul turns to Christ and repents…there is Biblical reference for Heaven rejoicing in that.
Remember, before the tower of Babble we were the same race. God chose to separate us because of our disobedience towards Him. We had unity and what did we do with it? We thought we could be better than God. God looks at our hearts, not our stature, as well as the heart of a leader, in His choosing. His ways are so much higher than ours.
So, are you saying yes to this question? “Do you think Barak OBama becoming President was and act of justice, Mercy, or righteousness meriting Heaven’s applause?”
“God is choosing to forget,” sounds a lot like open-theism to me.
First, let me clarify that any answer would have nothing to do with Obama himself.
Second, let me clarify that God is not reacting to any of this as if it was a surprise to Him. This is more of an appeal to the relational aspect of God than a statement about His sovereignty.
Third, any answer to your question is pure speculation regarding a literal “applause” … does God send out memos? Is there EarthTV? Are people in heaven NOW with physical vocal chords and hands to clap? Or do they get those with their resurrected bodies back on the new earth at the return of Christ?
So I would say the whole idea is a metaphor for the mind of God declaring that a large portion of earth making a statement that reflects His character of being just is a good thing — and all the spirits of the saints agree.
To answer your question, I would say “no” if you are referring solely to the act in and of itself. But I would say “yes” if you are referring to it as an expression of the character of God’s justice.
Be more specific in your question and I’ll be more specific in my answer. 🙂
Open theism…what do you mean by that in response to my answer? Do you believe that He can do that, meaning not hold our sins against us, or bring them up for leverage or guilt, or not think on. I do see your point about God not having a memory making Him appear not as powerful..I will give you that! Excellent point! 🙂 But it is written.
So, I ask, how could that be explained any better from a finite God to our fragile brains and still grasp His amazing forgiveness towards us, so to the point that sins forgiven will no longer be an issue…ever? They’re as far as the East is from the West? To us it would be like forgetting. To instead say He’ll put on the back burner, may not communicate the deep measure of God’s pure forgiveness.
And justice? Is his becoming President and act of justice? I don’t agree. As if white people are getting what they deserve, now the hero comes into the picture to set the record straight. Remember, he was elected by a bunch of races, and prayerfully because of his potential to lead, not because it is right to have an African American in office, because we never did. His election wasn’t to repay the nation. It is, hopefully, a start for healing. I think to suggest justice is prejudicial in itself. I would say instead it’s a leap from where the majority of the nation stood in regard to women and African Americans 200 years ago. More towards our view of humanity, not justice, but equality.
Turning this from a racial issue and to make the point clearer… Would it be all right for me to declare, if Hillary made it into office instead, that women in Heaven are rejoicing at her making it to the top? All of heaven is excited!!! I feel more comfortable hearing that statement, being a woman, and saying…don’t really think so! Because gender is not an issue in heaven. However, it would be a giant leap for womanhood on earth…or in America at least. And that statement would probably be a kind word from Christians that feminists would think is very nice to the ears, but true? Can we be sure? What does the Bible say Heaven does rejoice over? Are we trying to mix kindness with what we would like to believe is real?
Call me stubborn on this, cause I am, but I see no basis for such a statement.
Yikes! The more I gab, the more I feel like you are about to say check-mate..and I really don’t care for chess. In fact, I loath it! Good arguments though!!! Very thought provoking! However, I must admit, my nails are looking particularly short today. 🙂
Justice in the sense that someone can actually become President without the color of their skin automatically excluding them.
(Whether or not someone was elected BECAUSE of the color of their skin is a different discussion.)
So would you also take issue with Keith Green’s lyrics of Heaven weeping?
Does Heaven really weep at the church not meeting the physical needs of the poor?
Jesus seems to care in Matthew 25 … so whether it’s literally and/or figuratively, doesn’t it make sense that Heaven would care about what Jesus cares about?
First of all, thanks for the Jeremiah verse. I have been meditating on it since yesterday and found myself in complete awe of God and His forgiveness. It led me to a state of sweet worship before Him this morning. He is so GREAT!!!
The Keith Green song; great question! Would heaven weep at us ignoring Christ coming to our door and leaving Him out in the street? I really don’t see a Bible verse for it, there may be one, I’m just not aware of it. However, I personally have no problem with the words. Why? I guess because it is sad to rob Christ of what glory He is due; for us to ignore our creator and turn Him away. Isn’t heaven about exalting God for who He truly is. While there is no verse for it, it does line up with recognizing God as the focus of worship, glory and praise…even in assisting the poor. Pretty cool comparison if you ask me.
If you are trying to see the angle I’m coming from, it’s simply this; a Prayer. Why a prayer? Because I can only pray in my weakness that God allows this to govern my thinking, I cannot attain it myself and will fail at times, but still I pray….”God, if I error in anything, may it not be in diminishing Your holiness, glory or might. If I look like a fool and stubborn, may it be because I fear representing you in anyway but perfect. And when I show respect towards my fellow human beings may I not compromise by making them appear greater than they really are in Your presence. We were made for You God, to worship and serve; not You for us.”
To sum it up… If I error, may it be on my exaggerating that heaven is more about God than America, and His work greater than our accomplishments. If anyone is being praised in heaven, it’s not a man and his dream, or a woman and her dream for that matter, and having that dream carried out on earth. That makes heaven a little too man-centered for me. It is the God that broke through the bondage of sin in order to make it happen. To do the opposite means possibly robbing God of His role in it. Not a risk I’m willing to take.
“If anyone is being praised in heaven, it’s not a man and his dream, or a woman and her dream for that matter, and having that dream carried out on earth.”
I agree and I don’t think that is what Warren was saying.
Don’t you think that was irresponsible of Jeremiah to possibly suggest that God would know longer be omniscient? 😉
Or even Jesus Himself in Luke 13:34? How irresponsible was it of Him to suggest that man could actually thwart God’s efforts? 😉
Funny how we hold ourselves and others to a standard that Scripture can’t even live up to (don’t say anything that can be taken theologically incorrect)… especially living in a “sound bite” culture.
The point being we can always find something that can be taken the wrong way and nitpicked over. Thx for the discussion!
I don’t know what you’re suggesting are you trying to say I’m a hypocrite?
What do you mean by that?
“Funny how we hold ourselves and others to a standard that Scripture can’t even live up to (don’t say anything that can be taken theologically incorrect)… especially living in a “sound bite” culture.”
Is that supposed to be a check mate statement? ‘Cause ya lost me brother. 🙂
I’m sorry. That last comment of mine sounded sharp. I apologize and did feel caught off guard. Can I reword it please?
It appears that I am coming across as over critical on my remark about heaven applauding Barak O’Bama becoming President. Are you seeing this as me being hypocritical? I feel as if my reasoning was balanced. Perhaps if you have added information, there is another point I’m missing. I still stand on my answer.
I must say that I would not put Rick Warren on the same page as Jeremiah (A proven prophet speaking for God) or Jesus, (God Himself).
Jeremiah’s statement of God not remembering our sins would compare to our interpretation of it. I still see that for a strong argument.
Perhaps a lunch discussion after church may be better than a blog. This smilies can come across as cynical on line, and My heart doesn’t want to lend itself in that direction. Neither do I want to look pious, just passionate for souls to know the Savior and how worthy He is.
Again, please forgive me for reacting.
Not a checkmate. Not calling you a hypocrite. I think you got what Warren was trying to communicate in your previously stated nutshell and were gracious to him in his expression.
This whole thread is great to show that no matter what I say, no matter what you say, not matter what prophets say, or even God himself says … there will always be something that can be taken the wrong way.
Jeremiah was communicating that God no longer holds us accountable for our sin. But if he said those verses today and it was published on the internet it would be suspect of open-theism and criticized for not being theologically correct.
This is where someone posts and asks if I’m suggesting that being theologically correct doesn’t matter. 😉
“This whole thread is great to show that no matter what I say, no matter what you say, not matter what prophets say, or even God himself says … there will always be something that can be taken the wrong way.”
So so so true!!! I’m applauding you on that one..could heaven be too? I guess we’ll find out someday if it is 🙂 So good to know that we don’t have to know every answer to be a child of God. There is much relief in that.
nonetheless..goodstuff!
Despite my conviction on that one section, I will say again I was impressed with Rick’s prayer. I believe He did a better job than I would have and given the situation he was placed in….He was bold!!!
I do think there are “seemingly contradictions” that really aren’t contradictions, if addressed appropriately though Scripture. Like that Jeremiah verse. A lot of times, it is taking the time to reflect on them and study. There are statements made on our level that give us glimpses of Him, we end up comparing to our sinful nature…like God being jealous, etc. Sometimes I dig deeper, sometimes I’m guilty of relying on what i’ve heard. That is why I can hesitate to say totally true to some things if I don’t see a Biblical basis. I’d rather error on saying I’m not sure. That something I am thankful that God is still working through in me…makes me feel young still. He is so AWESOME!