We have been weaving our way through a teaching series called ChurchWorks . In digging through how a church functions we have been taking a look at expressions of the Spirit (a.k.a spiritual gifts). In doing research for this aspect of the teaching, I was turned onto a person claiming to be a powerful conduit of God’s Spirit. So, I thought it would be good to try and apply the teaching points we have unearthed in this study thus far (I Corinthians, Ephesians 4, etc.) directly to a Mr. Todd Bentley.
Here’s a general introduction from an Nightline special focusing on Mr. Bentley. BTW. I understand the people conducting the “investigation” are bent on disbelieving in any supernatural work of God. I am more interested in the content of what Mr. Bentley communicates. So, with that being said…
Nightline, Part I
Nightline, Part 2
To get the conversation rolling, let’s hear Mr. Bentley describe how the Spirit used him to minister to one lady. BTW. The audio comes from The Way of the Master Radio Show with commentary from Todd Friel. I do wish Mr. Friel was more like a coroner looking for evidence and less like a radio personality looking for punch lines. However, the value of the clip is in Mr. Bentley’s own words. Also, in the accompanying clips try to disregard the comments. I would rather not get sarcastic and juvenile (as I think some of the comments can be); rather, I want us to be critical thinkers as to what seems to be genuine and what seems to be fraudulent and WHY based on God’s Word.
Now, how about the application of the beautiful picture of baptizing people who have trusting in Christ:
Now, how angels function according to Mr. Bentley. As you watch this clip consider how healing occurred in the New Testament. What was the role of angels? Are their “healing angels” in the Bible? Does not healing come from the Holy Spirit? (e.g. see Matthew 12 and how Jesus said that when the religious leaders attributed a healing made by the Holy Spirit [working through Him] to Beelzebub they were blaspheming the Spirit. In other words, the Spirit of God does the healing not angels). Who should we believe? Mr. Bentley and his private conversations with God or the Word that God has given us in the Bible? There is simply no reason to believe God commissions “healing angels” now when he NEVER did this in the Bible.
How Todd’s Angelic visitation was the basis for his ministry now in Lakeland:
How about the method of how the a alledged miracle is imparted? Is it probably that the Spirit of God actually told Mr. Bentley to knee this guy in the gut?
What do you make of Todd predicting that Jesus would actually show up on stage with him? Is this a misquote? See for yourself…
OK. From what you have seen thus far, does it seem Todd is a conduit of God’s Spirit working? Why or why not?
Well, did my homework and watched the clips. In answer to your last question, it certainly seems that Mr. Todd Bentley is a conduit. I’ll leave it at that.
One interesting sound bite from the first clip is where he says: “We need a thousand Todd Bentleys.” Quite telling.
I think the biggest ‘red flag’ was mentioned by both Todd Friel and Dan and that is the lack of the Gospel. Like many less theatrical false teachers today (e.g. Joel Osteen) Todd Bently assumes that man’s greatest need is in the here and now, in Bently’s case the issue being physical healing. It seems his entire ministry revolves around that. There is no mention of sin or man’s need to be reconciled to God.
Another problem is the issue of who is central in Todd Bently’s teaching. From what I see here, Todd Bently is the central figure, not Jesus Christ.
Well this is pretty obvious and to the extreme for sure. This reminds me of some things I commonly see on TV every Sunday morning and on TBN as I quickly change the channel. Chaos rules and anything goes! A line in the old Debbie Boone song (You Light Up My Life) comes to mind. “How can it be wrong when it feels so right?”
In looking at these extremes I think we should be mindful and careful of the danger of being so overly concerned about ANY emotional outbursts or expressions, that true and genuine spiritual expressions are squelched/lack of freedom. The body potentially loses out on the encouragement and yes even the “experience” of their joy being made full during a worship service. True joy is expressed in many ways, but usually not by sitting on our hands and frowning. 😉
These expressions can also be an indirect way of shining the light to both believers and unbelievers and should not be hidden or for people to “hold back”. In all God gets the glory and the body is encouraged.
“Then Jesus said to them, “A lamp isn’t brought indoors to be put under a basket or under a bed, is it? It’s to be put on a lamp stand, isn’t it? (Mark 4:21)”
“These things have I spoken unto you, that my joy might abide in you, and that your joy might be full. (John 15:11)”
“Rejoice in the Lord always; again I will say, rejoice! (Phil 4:4)”
So as in all things with moderation and order, we can also have true expressions of joy in worship that should not be discouraged. More smiles of joy and being more intentional with others and less sour pusses should be the norm on Sunday morning and as we go out each week into the world. We do not need any more “Mr. Spock Christianity”. Plenty of that out there in Christendom. Use the old comparison of us going nuts cheering at a concert or sporting event vs. Sunday morning. There is a balance in there somewhere. Can I get a “Yea God!” or the wave from anyone? That would be “different”, but not out of order right?
With that said then…… God is good! Amen!!
As we “judge” another person’s Spiritual Expression’s validity on this blog, are there things in our own body that are less extreme but still might still be lacking in genuine “Spiritual Expression”? Traditions, rituals, fads, distractions? In other words, are there any logs in our eyes when looking at this toothpick in theirs? I don’t know the definitive answer to that as we self examine, but we all know there is no “perfect church”.
Wow, I need to finally get my own blog going http://www.kickingtheCAN.com so you guys and gals and rant and ramble at me for a change! 😉
When we are kids in VBS we scream and cheer in our praise and worship…I forget the song but, “I dug down deep and I found pure Gold” was one of the lyrics. As we move into Jr.High we are a bit more awkward and aware of our lack of couth yet we still belt out at the top of our lungs,”Our God is an Awesome God!” When is it exactly that we decide we don’t want to be singled out or made fun of that we stop singing to him (unashamedly) and start singing for those around us.
I started at Luther Rice Bible College (www.lru.edu) when I was a 25. They have a chapel twice a week Tuesday and Thursday. I was shamed to my core when I started signing in my soft under the breath modest way and the alumni (mostly 40+ aged men) started belting out hymns at the top of their lungs. They were not professional signers and individually they were not much to write home about, but together. . . WOW! They were unashamed of the gospel, they were not singing for my enjoyment, and they were making a truly joyful noise.
So I will agree with the previous post….. and get off my hands, but I will try not to sit behind anyone with sensitive ears in church on sunday.
On a side note showing joy in the Lord in a family setting, such as church, should not be ridiculed or over evaluated to a point were no one will show joy. Be careful not to confuse the manifestation of a gift of the Spirit with the natural outpouring of joy in the Spirit.
– James
Point well taken, we cannot allow ourselves to become the emotion police simply because of how emotions are being manipulated in this situation.
So, let’s get back on point. In what ways specifically does Todd seem to be off or right on in his expression of God’s Spirit through his actions?
OK Dan, back on topic, but I have to respectfully disagree with you about the guy that was being very sarcastic about Todd Bentley. He made me laugh. In a situation that is so blatantly wrong, deceitful, evil, and sad, we sometimes want or even need to laugh or poke fun to keep from crying at the thousands that led astray and deceived by this guy. Sarcasm and humor properly used is a great pressure valve and at the same time can still have us thinking “critically”.
FYI…Your links about “Emma the Angel” are no longer able to be viewed, but I am sure they were full of wacky abhorrent ideas and concepts to make my head spin.
Here are the bullet points from my perspective of why this guy is totally OFF on his expressions of God’s Sprit workings…..
1> Focus on self exaltation of “Todd Bentley” and his “gift” above focus on Christ and those coming to repentance.
2> No proclamation of the gospel of Christ and people seem to have no concept of repentance or what Christ did on the cross.
3> No records of people coming to Christ from these healings or “added to the church” from these “miracles”.
4> No use of scripture and no basis in scripture that I can find.
5> Drives people away from wanting anything to do with Jesus or Christians since it is so ridiculous and full of holes
6> 100% Emotion and total “Charismatic Chaos” at every turn.
See John McArthur’s Great book that I read from 1993 with the same name (Charismatic Chaos) and here is a sermon note based on that book that relates to this.
MacArthur’s book sums up exactly what was going on down in Lakeland FL.
http://www.biblebb.com/files/MAC/CHAOS1.HTM
Remember the false prophet Peter Popoff and his radio earpiece? This is a great clip from the Tonight Show years ago when he was first exposed. Like the ending of a good TV drama where the bad guy “gets it”! 🙂
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uUkCmkcuU4U
Take that baseball bat he talked about and use it to expose this false prophet’s teaching and hit it right out of the park! This stuff was a fastball down the middle of the plate!
Back to what a church is or should be…..
You know, people really just want to feel and be a part of new and something exciting. It is the herd mentality that seems ingrained in all of us. This seems to be the mentality of people flocking to Lakeland and also a few years ago for the Toronto Blessing. What are we as a body and a church missing that these people can flock to teaching and deception that any clear thinking reasonable person can see right through? Is it just that we are not “teaching enough biblical truth” out there and getting people to understand our brand of theology? I am sure that is a part, but statistics show that a large majority of people that join cults were formally disillusioned members of mainstream evangelical churches. Are we as the church out of balance with so little expression of public emotion and the relational part of our churches that people will go to extremes to get an “emotional fix” that makes no sense to the average person? Thinking out loud again.
There are many false teachers. Ones that are blatent like Todd Bentley and others that seem calm and collected, and everything in between. Do they preach Jesus as God, His crucifixion and resurrection for ALL who believe to be saved by his Grace alone? That the bible is the authoritative end all and Word of God? If not then run away fast and pray for/love family and friends that might be trapped in such deception. When they eventually crash and burn in disappointment (and they will) when their false teacher is exposed lets be there to bring them back to the truth in love.
OK…The wacky Emma vids came back available.
“Angel of Light” based on (2 Corinthians 11:14) for sure.
I am having difficulty in finding anything in Todd Bentley that is of the Lord. I don’t mean that sarcastically, every act whether it be preaching or healing serves to confirm in the audience and in his own eyes that the locus of heavenly power is in him. He is the heavenly mediator and we must listen to what he says, give our money, time and effort. He seems to sincerely believe what he is saying and if he has trained himself to believe that whatever thought pops in his head is God speaking to him, I think this explains the violent outbursts that he was speaking about and demonstrated. What he provides for the people is a simple, easy solution: himself. I think as was said in church when healing or “preaching” does not lead to or contain the gospel, there is a big problem. Also, I think it is worth noting that Todd Bentley’s view of the gospel and how healing works is a very western concept based on the idea that what life is all about is being physically healthy. This certainly can (unfortunately) be taught to eastern Christians but its roots begin in the west. Those are my thoughts anyway.
I haven’t had time to view all of the clips, but I thought it would be a good idea to point out that we have multiple Eric’s now. After Donna mentioned my comment on this post, and I didn’t have any recollection of commenting (I’m getting older, but I think I would remember that!), I figure it is a good idea to mention that my posts will always have my full name.
Maybe it’s time for a midlife crisis where I change my name to just my first initials since so many distinguished men are know that way (C.S. Lewis, R.C. Sproul, etc.). 🙂
-EK Farr
CA – I hope I’m not bold in saying this,because I’m no major Bible scholar. However, I enjoy talking about spiritual stuff. It seems to me that the people in Todd’s congregation look to him like an idol. Sort of like Moses and the people of Israel. They didn’t want to follow a God they couldn’t see they wanted a golden calf. Todd is that calf. It is not so much an issue of God’s truth being out there, because it is, as much as the people seeking their self gratification in what they want. Sad thing is that those who chose the calf fell into the earth or drank of the calf itself (melted gold). God never excuses us for being extreme in out emotions. We are still held accountable for acting on our feelings.
He is specific when He says in Proverbs 2 “My son if you receive my words and treasure my commands within you, so that you incline your ear to wisdom, and apply your heart to understanding; Yes, if you cry out for discernment, and lift up your voice for understanding…..(skip a few)… Then you will understand the fear of the LORD.” This verse incorporates emotion, and physical expression, with the idea of treasuring God’s commands and seeking His discernment and wisdom. Not just a fly by the seat expression such as howling for God or being lead like a dog. Here’s a question. Do you ever see satanists doing this? Why? Because it would make satan look like a bafoon! That’s why! Such is the case with God.I guess all this to say balance is the key. Back to what you said earlier about Debbie Boone; it can be very wrong to God, even if it feels so right to his creation.
“since so many distinguished men are know that way (C.S. Lewis, R.C. Sproul, etc.)”
Don’t forget that great biblical scholar (C.A. Nix) 😉
Thanks Vicki:
You always respond directly to things I have written here and you are always encouraging to me! Like yourself I am also not a “Major Bible Scholar” but not a caveman either (guiroo) ;). Your comments and insights are greatly appreciated.
I like your analogy of the golden calf. People want something to latch onto that seems physically tangible in the here and now.
But what does Jesus tell us in John 20:29 (NAS) about this?
(Jesus said to him, “Because you have seen Me, have you believed? Blessed are they who did not see, and yet believed.”)
We are greatly blessed indeed!!
I made the previous cult reference of people following someone blindly as it applies here, and this guy is the common foundation of people following a man and where cults begin. Remember Jim Jones started as a “normal” Baptist pastor.
This man is not only leading people astray, but is directly responsible to God for every one of them.
Thanks Again!!!
I haven’t looked at all the clips after about 5 I get tired. A couple things strike me as I watch videos like this one which may or may not be completely on topic but, at least it’s not spam.
The First thing I notice is when the bible is read, or scriptures sited, it is always verses by them selves often out of context. It is like they take the bible and use it as a magic book. Scriptures which may or may not be relevant are used like a charm to coerce God to action.
Second, since lots of these types of activities come from a similar background I wonder if they grow out of bad holy spirit doctrine. I know a lot of people in this camp don’t believe in the trinity and that the Holy Spirit is like a battery in a car. Just another thing to be used for the work of God, instead of being a person of God himself who is to be worshiped, praised, and feared for all things including the gifts he empowers in us.
I think the saddest part of this whole thing is that these people come to Todd seeking God and implicitly measure how much God loves them by the mountains and valleys they go through instead of the little hill out side Jerusalem. I hope the people who go to see him realize they are not just broken bodies in need of healing, but broken souls.
CA,
Thank you for your encouragement. You were very kind.
I just wanted to first say the John Mac Arthur sermon you posted was good stuff. It’s well worth the reading. Dan got me hooked onto his teaching when we were in college together. I’ve read his Bible studies throughout our marriage and have learned so much good theology from them. So, thank you!
I also wanted to comment on this point you made, “When they eventually crash and burn in disappointment (and they will) when their false teacher is exposed lets be there to bring them back to the truth in love.”
I can’t imagine any follower of Christ not doing that. Remember what it says about the shepherd, or Christ, leaving the 99 sheep to find the one lost? Each child of God is extremely precious to Him! The importance is on truth being known, not on what it took to get there. You don’t see the prodigal son’s father reprimanding the son, but rejoicing over his return of his son and excited that his son realized his place; even if it took humbling circumstances to bring it about. All in all, the father’s home was a sweeter place to him after that experience.
I probably need to take a break from blog reading. I’ve been very unproductive on the home front; my husband and kids can attest to that. My home is calling 🙂 Yikes!!! Times goes fast in front of a computer.
Thanks again for your kind words.
Real good analogy again using the prodigal son about being accepted with open arms. The only difference I would see is that those people believed they were “right” and already “home with their Dad”. With people that taught the “truth”.
The shock and reality that their spiritual house was built on sand can potentially discourage believers to trust any leader ever again once they come of a situation like that. Not talking about losing their faith in God, but in people or leadership in general.
This is where my comment about being there to for them when they come out of those bad situations with compassion instead of an “I tried to tell you the truth and you would not listen” attitude. If they are in Christ they will know that what you are telling them is truthful and sincere. If not immediately then eventually. God’s Word does not return void. Amen!
We must be transparent, genuine, and consistent with no angle other than truly caring for that person’s physical and spiritual well being.
No more “Christian Emril’s” spiritual gumbo cookbook videos please. Baam! Baam! I’m done! 🙂
Real quick….
Trust is something that needs to be earned. Anyone coming out of Todd’s church feeling disappointed, because of seeking God, but winding up more frustrated can indeed have reason to question the next teacher or Pastor they sit under. I think that is only natural.
However, it is almost a catalyst into something pretty neat. A view of scripture that may have not been there before, an ear much more open to what is actually being taught, and a sensitivity and heart for the lost. Yes, God works all things for the good for those that love Him and are called according to His purpose; no matter what others think…right? Personally, I can be preaching to myself on that line. Sometimes I tend to care too much about what people think. That is just foolish human pride.:)
I’ve heard testimonies of people on TV that have come out of such things and spoken boldly against them to warn others of the dangers. It is inspirational! Never once did I think, ” That’s just foolish!” If anything I think “That could totally be something I could do, but God chose to not glorify Himself through me in that way.” Ultimately it’s all about Him! Back to these people whose testimonies I’ve heard. They don’t speak with overwhelming regret, but with gratitude that God made them aware of such things. All of us have areas of our lives that we grow in. A view I have today may not be the same one I have tomorrow. I can remember sitting under professors in Bible College that said they taught one position (doctrinally) years ago, at the same college, and now their view is changed.
That was going to be quick. I’m too much of a talker. I hope I made sense. 🙂
As for Emril, I still haven’t seen his show yet; and I usually enjoy those cooking shows.
OK. Let’s start providing solid evaluation from the Bible regarding the activities of Mr. Todd Bentley.
#1.
Why does Todd need an angel to communicate to him? Jesus said: “I still have many things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now. 13 When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all the truth, for he will not speak on his own authority, but whatever he hears he will speak, and he will declare to you the things that are to come.” John 16:12-13 I would contend that Mr. Bentley is either being deceived by a demonic force or lying.
Am I wrong?
#2.
The prediction (since it seemed to be that exactly) that Christ would return on June 8 is directly opposed to what Christ said would be the signs of His coming in Matthew 24. And, in particular, how could he allow a person to write him and relay a “prophecy” of Christ’s return when Jesus said only the Father knows when this will occur? “But concerning that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father only.” Matthew 24:36 How can Mr. Bentley receive, read, and seemingly promote this type of message if he is under the control of the Holy Spirit in the middle of this revival meeting? At best he is horrifically immature or, at worst, doesn’t have the Holy Spirit to discern the difference.
Am I being too tough or narrow minded?
#3.
Where is the call to repentance of sin? I have not seen one clip in which a miracle is accompanied by a clear call to repent and trust in Christ for the forgiveness of their sins. See Acts 2-4 for three clear revolutions of a miracle that initiates a call for repentance that creates the environment to present the Gospel. In these video’s you see a bunch of experience, but at no time does Todd complete the cycle that was the bedrock of experience produced by the Holy Spirit in the Bible. Either the Holy Spirit has changed and we can no longer see patterns as useful in guiding us to live God-centered lives or Mr. Todd Bentley is not operating under the power of the Holy Spirit.
What am I missing?
Regardless of what is seemingly happening in these clips, there is no way to conclude it is completely flowing from the anointing of the Holy Spirit. It would seem that the people in Lakeland, Fl. are under a strong delusion. As far as Mr. Bentley, well, he is either too immature to recognize that he is being used by the Enemy or simply a false teacher enjoying the warm glow of the cameras and the loud applause of people. If it seems hard to make this type of conclusion based on what we have seen, then I would propose that you search the Scripture! To hold an experience over the expressed teaching and pattern of the Holy Spirit in the Bible is to invite folly on a massive level. We are not talking about little items that don’t really matter in the long run. We are talking about the lives and souls of people who think people like Mr. Todd Bentley is actually speaking for God. If you can’t expose this for what it is then maybe it exposes you for what you are, deceived.
Hi Vicki:
I think it is great when people come out of those bad situations with their faith and resolve being stronger than ever. However that is generally the people you hear and read about. The ones you see on TV as you said. The “inspirational minority” IMO. The ones featured on the 700 Club, and at public events/churches to motivate and encourage and even lead others to Christ. I thank God for those people, but I believe that the majority would be more on the down, hurt and dejected side.
For me this does not mean they are lost people since they do not respond with awe inspiring resolve and determination to help others in similar situations. I know you are not really saying that either.
I go back to my past comments about people professing Christ but not living up to the “measuring stick” that we set for them based on our own interpretation of scripture. I am still yet to know what that “really saved level” is.
Only God knows their state as a believer or not. All we can do it to love and encourage unconditionally, make sure they understand the clear simple gospel, the freedom and joy they can have in a genuine relationship with Christ based on truth, and not the lies of a man. It is only for God to know. If that means them coming to Christ great. If that means them getting right in their relationship with Christ great. I want to be there to catch them/be there if they fall out of that kind of mess and lift them up, love, and encourage them.
Same as you would for a friend or relative that is addicted to drugs or alchohol when they crash at the bottom. Just like my wife Mary did for her brother Mike in May. We have recently heard that he has come to know Christ through his alcohol rehab at the Potter’s house in Jefferson where is will be for a year. Amen for that and for my amazing wife being intentional in someone else’s life (both family members and others) and making a real difference for God’s kingdom and His glory.
There I go off topic again, but it is related to this topic. 😉 However…read the next post to Dan.
Dan:
FYI that your #3 above is the same as my original points 2 and 3 above and is really where the rubber meets the road IMO.
Here they are again in case nobody read them originally. 😉
2> No proclamation of the gospel of Christ and people seem to have no concept of repentance or what Christ did on the cross.
3> No records of people coming to Christ from these healings or “added to the church” from these “miracles”.
Something to ponder…
Now what if Christ had been proclaimed clearly and many were professing faith in Christ? That would have been a tough pickle as there would seem to be God hitting strait with a very crooked stick? Or would you believe that these professions and proclamations were invalid because of the rest of this man’s actions being false teachings?
Real quick from Philly… ’cause I don’t have as much work here.
Honestly, I’m a firm believer that God’s word does not come back void. God uses all kinds of people. I am so thankful that He controls every single circumstance; right down to our conscience. In the end, no matter who He uses, it shows His love for us. We look at the people and circumstances in our life (good influences and bad) and see the mighty hand of God at work. And if we draw closer to Him through it, or others do, every single moment was worth it…the good the bad and the ugly. To the glory of God! Amen, He is an awesome God!
I look forward to someday in Heaven maybe getting the chance to see the great masterpiece that God has painted through his people. Seeing bits and pieces just doesn’t compare to the big picture. He is an amazing artist in the hearts of people. From conviction to repentace to santification. He is the author and finisher, not us. I’m so thankful that He moves in the lives of people outside of our ability.
Oh, I see or read your points.
BTW no spell check here…I’m really bad at spelling, so please excuse any mis-spells.
C.A., in response to…”Now what if Christ had been proclaimed clearly and many were professing faith in Christ? That would have been a tough pickle as there would seem to be God hitting strait with a very crooked stick? Or would you believe that these professions and proclamations were invalid because of the rest of this man’s actions being false teachings?” I would reply with two thoughts [BTW. Very good questions!].
#1. I do think there are some who have come to Christ via the Holy Spirit using the Lakeland revival. I don’t believe it is because of Mr. Todd, but because even in missing or lopsided presentations God moves to call people to follow Him. It is amazing what God can do! BTW. If Mr. Todd were proclaiming the Gospel, I don’t think he would be doing some of this other stuff since He would be more attuned to the Bible (which in turn would correct his actions).
#2. The Gospel message stands on its own. What do I mean by that? The Gospel is a message that has certain truth-claims and these claims can be evaluated and responded to regardless of the messenger. Also, let’s remember we are all “crooked sticks” to some degree. The difference here is that Mr. Todd acts as if everything he is doing is directly from God’s lips to his ears. Also, we hear the content of his message and compare it to the Bible and it comes up wanting. This is not a personal thing.
Also, when I said previously, “If you can’t expose this for what it is then maybe it exposes you for what you are, deceived” I was not trying to be mean. I meant that if someone believed the experiences happening in Lakeland (that are contained in the clips) are really inspired and directed by the Holy Spirit then they are wrong. Why? Because it doesn’t compare with how the Spirit works in Scripture and this means they are attributing activities to the Holy Spirit with no basis other than the persuasive claims of Mr. Todd Bentley. In other words, they are being deceived. Again, truth must trump experience when they are in conflict.
Thanks Dan for acknowledging the relevance of my questions in this instance. 😉
I agree with everything you said. Especially the part about if the Gospel was really being proclaimed by this guy he would naturally not be doing what he is doing. I also liked that we are all “crooked sticks” and not just this guy. Though some seem more crooked than others, though sin is sin.
Thank God he sees us who have trusted Him as “perfectly strait” sticks through the blood of Jesus!