It’s been awfully quiet out here lately. I guess the busyness of the end of the school year and Dan’s vacation have limited the postings. Maybe this will get a constructive discussion started. I just came across Doug Groothius quoting a pastor who was J.C. Ryle (how’s that for being disconnected from the original source?) as follows.
“Christian churches no doubt are not like the Jewish temples. They have neither altars, priesthood, sacrifices, nor symbolic furniture. But they are places where God’s Word is read, where Christ is present, and where the Holy Ghost works on souls. These facts ought to make us grave reverent, and solemn whenever we enter them. . . . The man who behaves as carelessly in a church as he would in an inn, or a private dwelling, has yet much to learn. He has not the ‘mind of Christ.'”
So, does Ryle have a point here, or is this just stuffy formalism from a bygone era?
Still out here Eric….;)
Just the word “comportment” makes me cringe as it makes me think of stuffy and controlling methods, but in a school type setting. The definition is really good though….”dignified manner or conduct”.
Sunday is where we come to worship together and should be orderly and not chaotic. However, unlike the Jewish temple of old there is not a curtain with the holy of holies, or to not be able to read the name of God in our Bible without burning our clothes.
Christ is in our presence and the Spirit dwells within us. True that God’s Word is read, Christ is present, and He works on souls everywhere but not just on Sunday morning.
We should have reverence and respect for Christ equally the other 6 days of the week, but it sounds like this guy would prefer the behavior of more liturgical churches where we all come in quietly and act reverently, sing hymns to an organ, stand very still with hands at our sides, and walk out in a single file line. Lets also move up north, put coverings over our women’s heads, ride on wagons, and make furniture. 😉
Like everything in this life as believers we should have a balance and verses like Philippians 4:5 tell us to let our moderation/gentleness be known to everyone.
With the freedom we have in Christ we cannot base our behavior or “mode of worship” on Sunday from the opinions of any one man based on a culture from 100+ years ago.
Even something like the bible translation used is still under attack these days from some that beleive the KJV is the only legit translation. “If the KJV was good enough for the the apostle Paul….” 😉
We are in the world but not of it, though we still must function and are part of an ever evolving culture.
No doubt many churches have turned Sunday morning into a seeker friendly “business” with no Bible reading, or even mention of Christ in light of His glory and His sacrifice for us. That is sad to me, but what are we to do about that?
All we can do is to unashamedly proclaim the greatness of God, His Word, and His Son. We leave the methods of our GF Sunday worship and how reserved or not we should “behave” to no individual leader’s opinion, but from standards set by godly leaders (plural) as they are led by the Spirit and as we trust that leadership.
This all goes back to the blog about hip hop on Sunday from Curtis, and what is “appropriate in our own eyes”.
Yo Yo…Peace out my Brutha…
I think Ryle is dead on. There are certainly some differences from his day to ours in the way people conduct themselves even in ‘inns’ or private homes but church should still be different than the other spheres of our life. If one cannot tell the difference between a church meeting and a Rotary Club meeting or a community theater, then the church as become irrelevant. The church is to influcence the world but sadly today the reverse is more often true with churches chasing after the methods of the world in order to attract people rather than trusting in the sovereignty of God to do so.
I think the underlying issue is our attitude towards God. If we see God not as our ‘buddy’ but as the awesome, all powerful King of the universe this issue will in many ways take care of itself. I think a casual attitute towards God is behind the casual attitude towards church (I’m not talking about what people wear BTW) that is so prevelant in our western culture.
Places where:
A. God’s Word is read
+
B. Christ is present
+
C. The Holy Ghost works on souls
=
Grave reverent, and solemn whenever we enter them…
So judging from those criteria our own homes (private dwellings) ought to make us grave reverent, and solemn whenever we enter them.
I think the issue is acting carelessly, not where you act carelessly. I’d like to know what he means by “carelessly.”
“Carelessly” is the key. What does he mean by that? He is “dead on” as of course we should be God honoring and reverent on Sunday as this should be a special time for believers where we come together to worship. Does this mean hands by our side, keeping quiet, and singing to an organ while a man in robes speaks from a 20 foot high pulpit? I think not, but if we could truly see God’s glory in it’s fullness we would all fall on our faces for sure.
I respectfully disagree with Larry that “the church” is to influence the world in linking “the church” directly to our methods in Sunday morning services. That can have a negative or positive impact on some, but I believe as many at GF do that Sunday morning is not for the unbelieving world, but for the believer to come together to worship and honor our great God.
As I mentioned previously, our attitude, witness, and reverence toward God the other 6 days and 22 hours of the week are what really influence the world.
Sunday should be “special” but we are not under the law but under grace. If those three points are present, it is also OK to smile, laugh, clap our hands, and even a few lighthearted moments are fine as appropriate. It really seemed like Ryle was telling people that comportment and not being careless equals being ultra reserved in your behavior on Sunday like more liturgical churches.
Besides, I could not imagine Dan wearing a robe during his teaching. 😉
We’re going through “Training Hearts, Teaching Minds” by Starr Meade in our family devotional time and this idea of being (or not being)’careless’ in worship was actually the topic one night this past week as part of the discussion on the 4th Commandment.
She used Malachi 1:6-8 as the text where God admonishes His people for sacrificing lame and blind animals telling them they would not dare present such animals to their governor or other human leaders yet they do so to God.
Being careless in worship would be things like only attending if it was convenient then when we do attend, coming in late, being preoccupied with other things, not giving our full attention, etc. Things we would never do if invited to a meeting with, for example, the governor of the state.
The lesson made the point that if we come before God on Sunday with less care than we would an ‘important’ human being, we need to re-evaluate how we’re worshiping.
I’m not sure what Ryle had in mind when he said ‘careless’ but this is how it was presented by Starr Meade.
You wrote….
“Being careless in worship would be things like only attending if it was convenient then when we do attend, coming in late, being preoccupied with other things, not giving our full attention, etc. Things we would never do if invited to a meeting with, for example, the governor of the state”
Clearly we should not “forsake the assembling together”, but these items listed above are standards of men that are not in scripture. There is no scale to judge, but what you listed are good “guidelines”.
We must find ways to love others to want to be more involved and worship our Lord together out of love for Christ, but never a strangulating obligation based on how many time the door to the church is open each week.
I think your point also can be turned around in that we easily scream, cheer, and go nuts for the Braves or sporting event or concert, but many are hesitant to give God a praise offering after a song on Sunday if someone starts to clap. Even during the songs. Just notice the “smattering” of clapping each Sunday. We are all about giving God fame, but that tends to be with our hands at our side. This is also an opinion of men, but scripture does seem to backup that praise and worship can be more “extroverted” at times. Does this mean we are being careless by being too reserved? 😉
Food for thought…
I was just kind of sharing this as one example of how this question has been answered. However, I really didn’t think ‘be on time’ and ‘pay attention to what the pastor is saying’ was setting the bar all that high to be perfectly honest.
No problem Larry. I understand now.
Most importantly I think we agree that Sunday worship should be taken more seriously by more believers and we should realize the importance of coming together as a body and why. Your points of being on time, not paying attention, and thinking of other things are great examples of that. It can also apply to people that are asked to serve in different areas, and if we are all really doing it for God’s glory or just enough to get by with a pat on the back. Way too much mediocrity in Christendom IMO.
It also seems to me to be a matter of why we come and for who we come on Sunday instead the methods used once we get there. A matter of the internals verse the externals.
Sunday morning is neither a Christian Social Party Club, nor is it a funeral. At least is should not be either one of these, though some are. 😉
This is interesting to think about. I am not well equipped to discuss this on a theological level, only on a personal one, related to my own life experience.
I grew up in a Catholic church…a very small, very lovely little old fashioned church. It had beautiful stained glass windows depicting the stations of the cross. It had a high peaked ceiling, and smelled like…well, God. Especially to a six year old child. Granted, the doctrine utterly failed me when I became old enough to question the creeds we recited by wrote, but I miss the feeling (yes, that ugly word) of reverence I felt when entering that church, when the rest of the world fell away, and I could concentrate fully on all that I knew of God without distraction. I was told that “this is the house of God” and was awed by that. It caused me to be ever mindful of my behavior…made me want to be his servant, especially as I spent hours staring at those beautiful works of art that depicted the suffering of Christ. I miss that. I tell my own children “Don’t run in the sancuary. Don’t go on the stage, etc”…but it’s just not the same.
I know we are blessed to have a church building at all, and that many believers across the world worship in all types of conditions. I know it’s not the building that makes a church. However, I miss the soaring architecture that causes us to reflect on the heavens, the art that tells the story of our Savior so that even the littlest ones sitting on laps can see for themselves the love on His face. I think the casualness of the architecture of the modern day church has contributed to the difficulty of putting aside all else and truly focusing on God. I think the ability to create such art and architecture were gifts God gave man to assist in worshiping with your whole mind and heart. I know that such things have a danger of becoming monuments to man’s acheivements, but I think we’ve thrown the baby out with the bathwater in some respects….I think that the general ambiance of most modern churches contributes to the lack of reverence. But then again, I’ve been in some pretty gorgeous, yet spiritually bankrupt churches as well. Where is the balance?
I’m certain that there are many flaws in my thinking, as this is largely based on feelings and not facts. I’m interested to hear what others think about the relationship between our behavior and art.
Well said, Lesli. That reminds me of something Matt Redman said:
(Matt Redman is the songwriter behind Blessed Be Your Name — one of my favorites.)
It’s safe to say that the most important piece of equipment for any sound system is the room. By contrast, the room is hardly the most important feature of believers’ assembly for worship, but let’s face it, which brings you closer to awe: stained acoustical tile or stained glass? (Not that I’m lobbying for stained glass.)
Like Mr. Redman says, these shortcomings can be overcome — it’s just hard to do.
You know what is funny? Years later, I went back to the same church. Stained Glass? Gone. Statues? Gone? Art? Gone. Chior Loft? Gone. The interior had been stripped and it pretty much resembled most modern churches. As I greeted the parish priest on the way out, he recognized me and said proudly “Don’t you love what we’ve done with it?” I was pretty much speechless. A rare moment, indeed.
Lesli (and Hugh and Matt) hit on the thing that caused me to put this quote out there. I have an intuitive sense that Ryle is correct. However, when confronted with having to defend it with a reasoned argument, I come up short. A church building is just like any other building. Neither hushed tones nor beautiful artwork will make me more holy. Christ is no less present when I meet a friend at Starbucks than He is at a Sunday morning assembly.
We live in a time that is marked by casualness. As good modern American Protestants living holistically, we apply this equally to our church life. And in some sense this is good. We don’t have separate categories for our our church-life, work-life, family-life, etc. We are who we are in all that we do. You won’t find me in the line to trade my bluejeans for a tie.
Still, there is something inside me that longs to experience the transcendent nature of God in a tangible way. If we don’t find this when the church gathers corporately, we are not likely to find it anywhere else. As I read saints of the recent past that most of us would consider old-school (like J.C. Ryle or A.W. Tozer), I can’t help but think that we only cheat ourselves with a casual (if not careless) approach to corporate worship, even if we convince ourselves that it does not reflect a casual attitude toward the God we worship.
Eric – I think the reasoned argument is that we are visual creatures designed by God. Shouldn’t we be communicating the glory of God in everything we do? The ability to create God-centered art has been historically a great tool of evangelists…the evangelists who speak to us visual learners. Somehow we’ve cast down that tool as unneccesary. Is it any less necessary than the music at church? Why has it been banished? The cost? The time? The lack of talent? The question intrigues me. To me, it is much like bowing your head and closing your eyes when praying. It just helps.
Lesli, you are touching on a soap box of mine with the visual arts but I typically do not include architecture in my mindset. I guess because it seems so unobtainable to me. The average church can barely afford the space, let alone have a custom designed space, and hiring a top dollar artist of an architect to give the space creative design and meaning is out of the question 99.9% of the time.
Practical/moral questions also become more evident. What are the distinctions between Jesus’ rebuke to Judas when Mary used expensive oil on Jesus’ feet and million dollar facilities when people are outside hungry and homeless?
You are right…the architecture is unobtainable, and subject to much speculation of motive, as well. I was listening to John Piper talk about the place of art in the church. He said something to the effect that we have a duty to present the truth well said in whatever form that will awaken in people the affections that will glorify God. He said that he beleived some of the reasons were that the church has come to beleive that art is a non-effecient way to communicate the gospel (too time-consuming, too much concentration, to much time alone to complete) and that the secularization of the modern world has given art over to abhorent purposes. He says we need to be careful that our own pragmatism and protectedness don’t blind us. He said that the world should not be the only one that has art.
Forget the top dollar architect…I have to believe that we have talented people in our midst that would design beautiful churches that point people to the glory of God, that would awaken those affections that Piper speaks of, that provide a stepping stone to the reverence that Ryle encourages us toward. And not for money, but simply to point people to God. But perhaps the lack of emphasis on fine arts discipline in the most of our educational lives has led to a shortage of artistic believers.
I look at my own son, whose autism diagnosis leaves him hard pressed to grasp the intangible, who has no natural sense of time, but the numbers on the clock. I am constantly trying to find visual representations of spiritual things to encourage him toward God. It is one of the most difficult things to do, and I am so thankful that his salvation does not depend in any way on my ability to do so. I often wish I could take him back to the church of my youth, set him on my lap, and let him take it all in. And then take him over to Grace for the teaching. 🙂
I will have the great privilege of seeing Westminster Abbey in London and Notre Dame in Paris next month with my family. I hope to experience that exact same awe, grandeur, and beauty you mentioned. When it all comes down to it they are just buildings but you are so right that the look of the building inside can set the mood for reverence and awe in worship. What if we painted our walls all black and put up black lights everywhere for worship with felt posters of the cross that would light up in that cool purple color, and we can all wear white tee shirts to church? That would set a very strange and different mood for sure!! Extreme, but you get the point.
Even so, our reverence in worship should not be heavily based on beautiful buildings or things, but in some cases I guess it helps. This is so different than what you see on TV with so many churches and programs. So many are putting on a show of trying to impress people with ostentatious buildings and furnishings.
I believe this is a good balance somewhere……
So with our new building, how much per stained glass window? 😉
Stained glass is so … permanent. I’m thinkin’ giant LCD panels. That way the art can be changed out week to week … event to event … moment to moment.
And they make for a great Superbowl outreach opportunity.
Guiroo, that’s not fair. You know Dan reads these blogs. You’re just teasing him.
100″ LCD Panels in HD are only about $70,000 each. What a Bargain! Turn them sideways to make perfect stained glass windows.
http://www.tvpredictions.com/lcdguinness101106.htm
I don’t know about the LCD panels, but I can sign up for the next stained class art class at the university and perhaps by the time we build I can make one. At no charge. 🙂
They need to able to be repositioned into different configurations — separate panels, one giant panel, or end to end 360.
North Point gets a ton of free Apple stuff because they are breaking ground with their use of technology. Maybe we can put together a proposition and get a sponsorship too. Hmmmm.
Lesli, you go ahead and enroll for Plan B. 🙂
Seriously though, two or three more ceiling mounted projectors pointing at each wall could create some really nice scenes on Sunday mornings and could be easily changed. Stained glass effects included.
Would be a nice change from blank walls each week and maybe not too showy.
My question is why? Why the big screens? I honestly do not get that at all. Can someone give me 5 good reasons why a church should spend money on that type of thing BESIDES the only two I can think of:
1. The area is too big and people can’t see the preacher from the bleacher seats
2. We are trying to reach youth who are only wired to accept something that comes off a screen as useful information.
I’m not meaning to sound adversarial, but in my mind, the screens are part of the problem with the reverance issue…not part of the solution. Do we not, each and every one of us, get enough “screen time” as it is?
Lesli (who drops the bomb and runs for cover)
The ability to:
1. Display visual arts on the individual screens. (I’m not talking that “painter of light” guy or fluffy pictures of smiling lambs and children either but stuff like this.)
2. Change the art as needed (once stained glass is in, that’s what you get.)
3. Black out the house if needed (drama sketches, productions, plays, etc.) without having to tape up layers of black trash bags over the stained glass (been there, done that.)
4. Be used as elements in productions, services, etc. (Advent scenes per candle, displaying various stops of the passion, etc.)
5. Be used as additional lighting elements. (I imagine a Lord’s Supper surrounded by a deep red wash that blends to white at the top.)
Want any more?
Eric had a good idea yesterday … think Epcot.
During the teaching, imagine the entire room wrapped in 360 floor to ceiling video with a subtle 3-5 minute loop rolling. By “subtle” I mean, no closeups of people or individual actions … just environments.
The possibilities are endless … a series on the Sermon of the Mount and having the actual Mount and seashore all around you. Or having a temple/market all around you. Or being in the upper room — candles, food on tables, windows with the city outside or the moon, stars and branches slowly blowing in the wind. Or being on the boat during the storm.
We could pioneer the usage of the hardware/software and then produce the material/footage to be sold.
Now you guys are thinking big!
You know, if I had my way, church would be in the woods, specifically in Cedar Grove in Kings Canyon National Park. Maybe you could make me a movie of that?
Interesting question…if you could design a church sanctuary, money or land not being an issue, governed only by your personal bent of where you would be the most inspired to worship what would it look like physically?
Lesli, I am 62 years of age and made the paintings Quiroo referred to. Only eight years ago I discovered I had a touch of aspberger syndrome. I find it difficult to know how to behave within a group, doesn’t like big crowds and never understood why I was unable to function in committees and groups. I seem to have a disruptive stigma as I speak my mind, which results often in people not understanding my intension’s and at the end of the day ending up on the fringe of the group. I have turned my back to organized church and walk happily with my Lord. I have had a strong awareness of God the Father as long as I can remember, plus a gifting in expressing myself in paint. I combined the two and I am blessing many around the world who want to look at it. I worked for twelve years among autistic children. Let me tell you, many of them accepted me and understood me. Many of these people are only reachable by visual communication. Love your son, he knows and will understand more then most of them out there. never forget that these special people seem to be under a very special Grace! bless: Cor Monsma