Recently, Bethlehem Baptist Church (Pastor John Piper) invited rapper Curtis (“Voice”) Allen to perform. Although the church supported him enthusiastically, the video created a flood of opposition from Christians outside of the church who are, as Paul defines, are “weak brothers” (see I Cor. 8-10; Rom. 14-15). People struggling with using rap in a church as a mode of leading in worship is undestandable, but to have people in pastoral leadership not understand the difference between the message and the medium is shocking. I think it is awesome that Curtis takes the time to rescue nearsighted leaders by being vulnerable, transparent and a convincing example of a “strong believer” in the middle of the firestorm. May you and I have this type of persepctive.
(HT: Challies)
Update: For those who are interested, here’s the video of Curtis’s time at Bethlehem:
Curtis Allen’s response to this situation.
Cool…John Piper seems to be a pretty hip old guy to allow this. 😉 I am enjoying his passionate and enthusiastic style of teaching in our small group on DVD.
But more than being cool or hip he seems to be a leader that is willing to take risks to shake up the status quo of what we believe a worship service is supposed to be in our ultra-reserved, hands in our pockets, “Bapist-tey” ways on Sunday mornings.
But we should never just to shake things up for the sake of doing something different. For God’s fame right?
Curtis seemed to really have a passion for what he was doing and singing and John Piper saw beyond the stereotypes and musical style to give someone the opportunity to share with the body in music in a way that would not be thought of as “normal” by many.
That musical style is not my cup of tea, but I still think it was cool since the message and the genuine passion of the performer shined through. I think he was worshipping and I believe others did as well. Shocking? I hope not!!!
Sure would be nice to see some of this kind of “variety” at GF once in a while. Really really nice.
Lots of gifted people that have much to share with the body at GF in music and drama.
All would be encouraging to the body and also to that person or persons given the opportunity.
Not sure if we have any rappers at GF but you never know what hidden talents could be out there among the body at GF.
C.A. – Your last few statements bring some questions to mind. Do you think our services are lacking in some way due to a lack of variety? Do you know folks that want to serve in some creative capacity but feel they don’t have the opportunity at church?
You mentioned drama as a variety. I personally think drama can be very effective communicator of truth. In order to have a drama ministry, you have to have a leader, just like all the other ministries of the church. Is there someone you know with the time and talents that wants to lead a drama team? Is that person’s initials C.A.? 😉
I’d like to point out that it works both ways and say:
But we should never do things the same for the sake of doing something the same. For God’s fame right?
Rap it definately not my cup of tea. However, when looking at Allen’s performance, I would agree that it was respectful, reverent and theologically sound. More impressive was his repsonse to his critics, very humble and grace-filled. Don’t take that as a request for a rap number this Sunday, please! 🙂
However, a question comes to my mind regarding worship. Is anything we have a talent for or an interest in suitable for worship in the church? In other words, just because God has given me certain talents and interests does that necessarily mean I’m to use those in a worship service?
Cain’s offering in Genesis 4 was rejected not only because his heart was not right before God but also because it was not in the form required by God (a blood sacrifice). Do we have the liberty to bring into worship those things which have no precedent in scripture?
As a fan of Reformed Evangelical Hip Hop (even though I’m a white suburbanite) I have to say that it’s awesome to see this kind of diversity. It may sound weird but there is actually a number of Reformed Evangelical Hip Hop artist. Lecrae, Trip Lee, The Ambassador (a head pastor whose debut album was based on his thesis), Cross Movement, Thissle, Flame, to name a few.
What’s surprising is the fact that their music contains more firm biblical doctrine than most of the junk on Christian radio. These guys are serious about Christ!
Here are some websites that you may be interested in for more information.
http://www.crossmovementrecords.com
http://www.lecrae.com (My personal favorite)
http://www.theambassadoronline.com (Here his sermons)
All For His Glory!
Kevin
“Hear his sermons” or “Here are his sermons”
take your pick
I’m not a big rap fan either, but I kinda liked it.
More than that, though, I agree that we should all seek to respond to criticism with the sort of grace-filled attitude that Allen did here.
I actually went to school with “Duce” aka., “the Ambassador.” I knew him before he knew hardly anything related to theology, but he could rap like crazy! I actually did an outreach in ’91 in which he rapped. I have some funny stories about Duce – ask me sometimes and I will lay them on ya’. Duce went on to get his ThM from Dallas Theological Seminary. This cat knows his stuff.
“Peace-Out”
Larry – You pose a great question. I have been exposed through other blogs to different ideologies on what exactly is the look and process of Biblical Worship in chruch gatherings. There is the Regulatory Principle, exclusive Psalmnody, and Grace Covenant Renewal Worship as examples. These all derive from their forms from the Bible, and require exclusivity to those forms. I don’t have a full understanding of these ideas yet. It is a fascinating subject. If anyone is interested, I recommend The Lord’s Service: The Grace of Covenant Renewal Worship by Jeffrey Meyer.
To Kev-o Shultzy…
I don’t think we are really lacking, but I believe in my heart that we have a large group of people that would love to come out of their shells and be used for God’s glory with a special song, dramatic dance, drama, or even a chorale of people for a special occasion like Easter or Christmas.
As a numerically growing body there are more and more people with gifts and talents that could be used for God’s fame and worship, and encouragement of the body.
Just like with pastors in traditional churches we tend naturally leave the music to the “paid professionals” as we sit in the chairs as spectators and keep out gifts to ourselves.
You know that I am personally opposed to anything that could be construed as a self centered show on Sunday morning.
With that said there are always things this could be done at GF to better enhance the “experience” if you will, but enhance for the right reasons. To bring honor to God and garner the praise of His people.
The two girls that did the interpretive dancing last year comes to mind as something that was so different, so pleasant to watch, and blessed me personally. This rap/hip-hop in church brought all this back to my mind.
I do think that using drama every few weeks that leads into the message, or is used to make a point about an upcoming event is really a great ministry, and IMO in great need at GF.
Not always serious and deep drama. Sometimes goofy or funny is needed (with a spiritual point) as there is nothing wrong with a good laugh on Sunday morning every so often right?
I also believe that many want to feel less reserved during the services and clap during a song and applaud God’s greatness afterward. In many ways we are ultra-reserved, hands in our pockets, and Bapisty on Sunday. Right now there is an awkwardness to clap or applaud that I simply cannot explain.
Yet those same people would scream and go nuts at a Braves game or other sporting event.
I think taking risks like John Piper and coming out of our comfort zones as a body, getting out of the status quo mode, and trying new things can only set us on the path for more intimate and less reserved worship from the folks out in the seats. This can also make the body at GF feel more like part of the body and not a spectator in a show on Sunday.
And yes, should the opportunity ever be offered I would without hesitation take on such a ministry with Mary as we are both the official drama king and queen. 😉
I would encourage people to jump in if they want to do more creative expressions of worship or drama, or even be more expressive in the service. It satrts with the first one, so C.A. I think you may be the one to get it going. If “people” want to do something, there is really noone holding them back. So.. “talk-it-up.” If “many” want to there is no reason why they can’t.
C.A. – You said,
I think this statement may be indicative of your past experience, but not Grace Fellowship. We are a full volunteer band with open auditions. You know that.
Then you said,
We have a lot going on at Grace Fellowship. All the activity is not for programming sake, but born out the the philosophy of ministry of the church. To add ministries for the sake of adding them is not the desire of the leadership team. Like I posted previously, “in order to have a drama ministry, you have to have a leader, just like all the other ministries of the church”.
My point is no one is going to put upon you or anyone else to lead a ministry. If you want to start a drama ministry at church, think it through, pray about it, then bring the concept to the leadership team.
As far as branching out, man, I’d love for someone to talk to me about doing a special for the service. The fact is no one has, save the ballet. It seems we have some serious shell cracking to do. 😉
You do have a great point about displayed passion at church versus sporting events. That could be a whole other blog. Thanks for sharing your thoughts on this.
Kev:
On the point of leaving the worship services to the “paid professionals” I was talking about the lay people not being willing to step up and share their gifts or making them known to the leadership. I apologize if you took that as any kind of slight toward you or the leadership. Not at all!
My point was that we tend to expect our pastors to lead our friends to Christ for us on Sundays, to feed us each week instead of reading and studying ourselves, and we expect the worship leaders to “entertain” us each week with cool music and drama instead of getting involved and using our gifts for His glory and the body.
I read a book years ago that really hit this point home. The Open Church by Dean Rusk.
This sums up what I was saying above, but he places more (but not all) of the blame on the leaders, and though is the case in many circumstances these days, that is definitely not a problem at GF.
http://openchurch.com/problem.php
He is funny and sarcastic, but a little harsh too. However many great points that I am sure you and most in leadership at GF would agree with.
Special music and drama are passions for both Mary and I to a point of feeling directly called to be involved in this way one day. Not only in performing ourselves, but encouraging others to be involved and to work with us.
You have not heard from either of us about this directly before because we do not desire to come on too gang busters and over bearing. We want to wait on the Lord and for the timing to be right. He knows.
This blog topic hit right on this or we would still be quiet on this subject for a while longer.
We are already involved in music ministry and with the kids, so we are definitely using our gifts and not sitting on our hands, but as God allows and as the opportunity and timing are right, we would be very willing to pray and consider leading such a ministry at GF.
OK then….our shell is officially cracked… 😉
Your heart for genuine ministry and worship is always an encouragement to me. It is great serving with you!!!
YBIC….
I know where you are coming from C.A. and thanks for the kind words. [warning: mounting soapbox] Just be mindful of how you use the word “we”. Generalizations can be difficult to substantiate. If you are coming from personal experience, “I” is a much better fit.
Call me overly particular, but I grow weary of hearing, “most churches… (fill in the blank)”, when those making the statements have not been to most churches. OK, I’m off my soapbox now. 🙂
PEACE!
Thanks Kev:
Here is my own mini-soapbox…
When I say “we” that includes “me”. I did not say “they” which means “them”. 😉 For years I was a face in the crowd too.
I guess my comments would be construed as a sweeping generalization about the state and health of the institutional church in the US and around the world. That is what this blog entry boils down to in my opinion. The knee-jerk reaction from some unhealthy institutional churches, and some of the folks they produce.
In general would you agree that the institutional church is not very healthy in 2007? That the focus is much off of Christ and much on growth in numbers and success based solely on size, number salvation prayers prayed, celebrity status of the pastor or music director, and little focus on God’s fame and the health of the believer? Being very religious? Do you agree that churches with a focus like GF are an extreme rarity and blessing? Not that we are better than anyone else, but that our focus in in the “right” places more than not? Far from perfect obviously, but the focus is off of us as the star of the show.
Many Christians seem to spend so much time and energy being offended with non-critical things they see others do inside or out of church that they lose focus of the goal and prize. So little outward joy of the Lord, and that is what the world sees too. This was the case with the reaction to Curtis Allen’s rapping in church. What a godly response from him to this criticism of his music! I would have failed that test miserably! Flame thrower on full blast from me with no concern for who I hurt in the process, as long as I knew I was right!
This kind of mode/mentality has always been our personal experience (every single time and place) until coming to GF. No matter the denomination or size of the church. I became so very cynical and dejected for so many years that I wanted nothing to do with “churches”. Praise the Lord for His never ending love and mercy to bring me back to Him and to His people!
Key verse for me….
Psalm 119:165 “Great peace have they which love thy law; and nothing shall offend them.”
The author of “The Open Church” (Jim Rutz…I had the name wrong previously…sorry!) seems to take a very similar belief and mindset that the lay people have sat back comfortably for hundreds of years since the reformation and let the ones with the most “talent” or the most vocal do everything as far as ministry in Sunday worship. Rutz calls it a “partial reformation”. We got the doctrines right for the most part, but left many of the traditions, church structure, and formalities in place from the Catholic church of old.
If one of the leaders at GF ever wrote a book called “For God’s Fame” explaining the vision for our church, and how we are “different” I believe it would be a best seller and also very controversial at the same time. But only controversial to the same types of people that were so offended by the hip hop at Piper’s church.
Bottom line…..encourage others to use their gifts for ministry, and to find out what those gifts are. But not forced or just to try for the sake of trying. Only as the leaders feel led through a prompting of the spirit or undeniable circumstances to take a risk and consider starting a new and different ministry in the church. Just like how GF first began. What a risk that was! If that means we have someone doing hip hop for Jesus on Sunday morning as the leaders are led for whatever reason, I would be one of the people standing and clapping to God’s glory at the end if performed with the passion and sincerity of someone like Curtis.
If people feel like they will be ridiculed or criticized if their talents and gifts are not in the mainstream or the “norm”, then my guess would be that we will never learn of these talents, and they will remain forever bottled up. How to get people to come out of their shells and how do we learn about their talents to be used for God’s honor and the building up of the body? That is a question for leadership. 😉
Another unnecessarily lengthy dissertation from moi. Apologies to all. I hope it made some sense, or that anyone cared about any of my ramblings enough to read all this.
You make a great point C.A. – encourage others to use their gifts.
I don’t know that I am in a position to comment on the state of the institutional church for the reasons I stated before. I have only attended two churches in my life, Grace Fellowship being one of them.
But as for the people and philosophy of ministry at Grace Fellowship, I will declare it a blessing. Is our type of focus rare? My experience in the blogsphere says not necessarily.
I am so glad you and Mary see Grace Fellowship as unique in your collective experience, and that uniqueness makes you want to call Grace Fellowship home. ‘Til Sunday…
Peace.
I just wanted to chime in to break up the back and forth with C.A. and Kevin. You know try something different. 🙂
I watched the video of “Voice” Allen performing at BBC. I liked the doctrine and the passion. I would definetly have to hear a studio mix before I could rate the quality of the voice and music; Youtube is a bit low res.
I am ashamed of my brothers and sisters who threw insults (from afar) at him. I wonder if these are the same folks who split churches over having ensambles instead of choirs? I wonder if D.C. Talk would be welcome in their congragations or at least Toby Mac. His answer to his detractors brought honor to God. He gave the Spirit all the credit. That is the right way to handle things. Stop. Pray. Yield. God gets the credit and you don’t lose your testimony. I know I could use that method a lot more.
There was one person who objected to Curtis’s genre based on it’s origins; coming from the seedier side of society. I wonder if they would rather hear a good hymm like A Mighty Fortress. I wonder what it’s origins were? Couldn’t have come from a drinking song, right?
Anyway I guess I’m done chiming in,
Word to my Brothas
DJ FM – PEACE!
Kevin,
One of the reason’s my family and were drawn to GFC is your attention to contemporary song’s that have off the scale reverence and adoration to the God of the Bible. I am often compelled to drop to my knees or shed a tear of love and affection for the Person we are so deeply worshiping. And I do.
I have been in many church’s from the white knuckle grip on the back of the pew style, to the running and barking like a dog and “holy” laughter style. When we focus on our felt needs to either use our talents, or make the experience more man centered… or more rightly said, individual centered, there are certain tendencies that bankrupt the best of intentions.
God has blessed your ministry friend with humility and hallowed emotional responses from those that hold the highest regard for the holiness of God. You have not yet stretched yourself and the congregation in effect as I believe you will should we continue with your Spirit-centered effort. Friend I come to church with a smile on my face and a glad hand for fellowship. But when we worship, my approach to the throne of the almighty I AM, climax’s after a week of devotional study of the person God. You and your organization have been the instrument to that end.
Is a once in a while break from a perfecting work critical to keep an establishment mentality from turning us to stone? I will grant that’s possible but not necessary. A whisper Godward and heavenward from the hearts that are glowing with a grand desire to communicate with a Christ who can shake the foundations of the earth are of priceless value when compared with the majority of church’s that I have been in that find no end to the experimental, experience focused crowd’s of this post-modern era.
You can knock me down, step on my face, scatter my name all over the place. Do anything that you wanna do but uh’ uh honey lay off of this worship service.
Worship….Standing before the throne of God..centering on Him…Adoring Him…It’s all about Him and not about us.
I don’t think any of the ideas conveyed in the blog for more variety in worship or leaders taking a risk when they feel strongly led to do so was in any way focused more on bringing honor or attention to ourselves.
I think the theme has been clear that people need to find their gifts, and leaders need to be willing to seek out those gifts in people for the good the health of the entire body and all things for God’s glory.
If worship though music did not change over the years to be more relevant in our culture in 2007 we would still be only singing to an organ and choir each Sunday. Does that mean this should never be done anywhere?
To have an organ sound on the synth or full band and a chorale of people every so often……that might be wonderful, and could encourage the body and lift up Christ. Up to the leaders to decide. We throw in an old hymn every so often that has been modernized and that really blesses me! To me the hymns became so old, over sung, and meaningless for so many years, and hearing and and singing them again makes me enjoy them more now and they can be used to put me in a spirit of worship.
The schedule of songs, themes, messages, and logistics for childcare each week do not come out of the air or from direct divine revelation. Everyone does not just show up Sunday and completely wing it right? They come from men and women of God working very hard each week to make it happen and happen smoothly. They are seeking to bring honor and praise to our Lord. Those leaders pray for guidance and then use their gifts to lead and seek out others with their own gifts to make the experience on Sunday meaningful, encouraging, uplifting, and most importantly For God’s Fame.
That is the focus at GF and for that I am thankful to be a small part.
I am also willing to take on additional responsibilities but only as the opportunity arises, and only as the leadership feels in their hearts the time is right.
Be that a drama team, special music, or a group of people that sing together like the kids do a few times a year. And yes, maybe even hip hop! 😉
As the song says…..
“Let everything I say and do
Be founded by my faith in You
I lift up holy hands and sing
Let the praises ring!”
Peace Out….
Just something to think about… If corporate worship is only about God, then why does it matter that we do it corporately? In addition, does God need our worship, or are we the one’s with the need to worship? In that sense, isn’t is all about us?
I realize that what we mean when we say that it is all about God is that He is the sole object of our worship, but I think it is helpful to remember who is the benefactor and who is the beneficiary of worship.
The fact that God doesn’t need our worship does not mean that our worship is not primarily for Him. God also does not need our fellowship but despite that He’s chosen to save some of mankind. Just as we cannot be reconciled to God any way that we’re comfortable with and that meets our “needs”, we also cannot use those criteria to choose how to worship Him either in my opinion.
As I think Phil pointed out, we’re coming before the Almighty God of the Universe giving Him His due, we’re not there to receive personal fulfillment through the exercise of our talents primarily.
That’s not a commentary one way or the other on contemporary music. But I do think, as I alluded to earlier, we shouldn’t get the idea that just because we have an interest in something or a talent for something that it must be used on Sunday morning, in a worship service.
In the past there was a signifcant Christian presence in the arts, in literature, in science, etc. Christians used their God-given talents in these areas to positively impact the culture and to promote a Biblical world view. I think we need to again look outward from the church building in order to make use of many of these talents. We can bring fame and glory to the God of the universe by using our talents in this way sometimes even more effectively than by always seeking a way to exercise them within the confines of a weekly worship service.
I’m not saying that we should approach worship in a self indulgent way. Sorry if it came across that way.
However, there does seem to be a horizontal aspect to corporate worship. I’m thinking of passages like…
Here Paul is rebuking a self-indulgent ‘me-and-God’ approach. But implicit in his rebuke is the idea that there is building up of one another in corporate worship.
It seems to me that Paul and Silas were mutually edifying one another as they sang hymns to God in that Philippian jail (Acts 16:25). I don’t think this is at odds with the idea that God is the sole object of our worship.
I sometimes think that in our American, rugged individualism there can be a tendency to overcompensate for a lack of individual relationship with God in liberal or liturgical churches by making worship (even in a corporate setting) always just between the worshipper and God. If we do this, we neglect the power that our worshipping together has to build one another up in the Lord. What greater way to be encouraged in the Lord than to sing His praises among His people, supernaturally bonded together in the mystery that is the Church?
I’d wholeheartedly agree that we should use our God-given talents outside the church as well to bring fame to God. As I think you are saying, it doesn’t have to be one or the other.
Eric, nice distiction. We can, at times, make a great point at the expense of balance.
Our talents are obviously not all for Sunday morning. There are other ministries at other times, both for the body and for the lost. Both as a church and as an individual. But that is not the discussion topic here. Let’s not lose the point.
This blog is discussing hip hop during a Sunday worship service, and how it was looked down upon by many, the reasons why, and what is really appropriate for a Sunday worship service, and whether our own reservations about this are based on the opinions of men, or the Word of God.
Whether or not God “needs” our worship and praise there can be no question that He desires it and it is pleasing to Him. The Word tells us that He inhabits our praise and our adoration and praise and sacrifices are a “sweet smell” to Him. Both on Sunday morning and during the week when we are driving around town and talking to people.
Our benefit is not to necessarily just “feel good” but to commune with God through corporate worship. It honors Him, and blesses us at the same time. There is nothing self serving or selfish about that!!!
The 80 year old man singing an old hymn with to an organ can be just as honoring and worshipful as the 20+ year old singing a modern song to a full band. We need to look at the content and heart more than the actual style of music being sung and neither side should marginalize the other. At GF we do the latter style and that matches where God is leading in our family’s life, and for that we are thankful to be a part. But we should always open to variety and changes as the leadership leads to stay fresh and relevant for the sake of the lost world and the body. Yes that is important. I volunteer to lead when the leaders are ready for drama or special music at GF. Only when they are ready with God’s leading and not a second before that.
Our God is a big God!
So if it’s not about the style of music, and only about giving God His due, then Larry and Phil should have no problem with GF Worship Team doing hip-hop on Sunday AM from now on.
If that is a problem then that means it’s either about:
A. Inherent values of contemporary music styles*
B. Larry’s and Phil’s “felt needs”
* You’re going to have a hard time arguing that songs built on the fundamentals of rock-n-roll are “God-honoring” while the very same songs built on hip-hop fundamentals are not.
Sorry, I don’t mean to come across as if I’m attacking Larry and Phil personally. As a believer and an artist, I find it ironic that the shame of “felt needs” is typically placed on the one who has an inherent desire to honor God (and encourage the body) with his God-given gift.
Twenty years ago I would not have been allowed to play the drums, “within the confines of a weekly worship service.” Why? Because of other peoples’ felt needs that worship music should sound a certain way.
Shouldn’t our motivation for worship be that we feel the need to thank, praise, and otherwise magnify and glorify our Creator and Redeemer? What other God honoring reason is there?
“Felt needs” may be a code word something illegitimate. If so, I think we should define it.
Man, if you guys only knew what the music sounds like in my head. 😉
There are times I could but don’t push the edges. It’s not out of fear, but out of reverence for others preferences and history. I guess I have an internal governor of what is indulgent.
Sunday morning could sound a lot different, and according to the folks commenting on this blog, I have the freedom to do that. Thanks for all of your support of the music ministry expressed on this blog.
As for defining felt needs, I think Phil defined it well: “individual centered” requirements. David expanded on it. Individual centered requirements to the exclusion of others requirements.
I’ll finish this comment with a quote from Bob Carlisle:
Kevin, I appreciate the response, but I guess it’s still a little too vague for me. What would be the “other requirements” that felt needs are to the exclusion of?
I think I have a sense of what we mean by the term, but if we don’t define it carefully, then it just sounds like name-calling. Then, we can just throw that term at any form of worship that doesn’t fit our idea of propriety.
If I feel the need to raise my hands while I sing to God, is that a “felt need” or an “individual centered” requirement? What if another feels the need to rap to the glory of God?
This is where I think it is helpful to look at the vertical and the horizontal aspects of corporate worship.
If we are alone, then all that matters is that God is the object of our worship. If that is the case, then what form that worship takes is irrelevant: dance, sing, rap, do somersaults, whatever expresses your joy in God to Him (if it is genuine).
In corporate worship, the key is still that God is the object, but the horizontal element becomes a factor as well. Now I have to be aware of how my expression of worship edifies my brother. Of course this gets a lot more complicated because what edifies the body is not always clear. Taking a least common denominator approach does not seem right to me, but neither does shocking the delicate sensibilities of Grandma or calling attention to myself in a showy way.
Wow Eric, you’re on a clarification role. Appreciated.
I tend to find that the “felt needs” card is played by one musical preference (Style A) to demonize the other (Style B) as demanding itself above the worship of God — implying that God has established and prefers Style A — in an effort to mask its own personal subjectiveness. If we could search God’s iPod by genre what would we find?
I envision a day when the debates of “out of the norm” worship styles like this no longer occur. Not because “normal” has been defined and regulated, but because there is so much variety that “normal” no longer exists. All styles of music, poetry, paintings, reading of scripture (go Shane go), and so on…
BTW…no offense taken David. Again, I wasn’t commenting on the contemporary versus traditional music issue. Music is definately an appropriate and necessary part of worship and music over the years and across cultures has taken many forms. I was more commenting on making other things such as dance, drama, etc. part of worship. There’s no doubt that (first and foremost in my opinion) the reading and preaching of God’s Word is to be included in a worship service. Other things would be prayer, music, Lord’s Supper and Baptism. All these things can be supported by the New Testament as legitimate components of corporate worship.
Could hip-hop be in that mix? Much as it pains me to say so, hip-hop would fall into the category of music it seems. So in that respect yes, if it not only honors and glorifies God but also edifies those gathered on the Lord’s Day as Eric pointed out. I think both of those things must be present though.
Great points from Eric and Guiroo!
I love the contrast of discussion about horizontal vs. vertical worship. Nothing encourages me more to be up there helping to lead on Sunday and seeing people in the body worshipping God (horizontal) and the result sometimes is a deeper worship time with God for myself (vertical).
IMO our focus should always be on the vertical and the horizontal is a by-product. The leaders as GF are very conscious of the importance of lyrics that are vertically focused and biblically solid. So much so that they have convicted me with a number of my favorites. Michael W. Smith’s “Above All” is a good example. Jesus did not actually think of “me” above all, but “His Glory” above all. So the leaders have chosen not to sing that song at GF, though I have changed the words for them. “He took the fall, and His Glory reigned…above all” 😉 So for me I trust them if they decide to try something new and different. The recent singing of “40” by U2 is a great example of doing something different, taking a risk, but believing it is God honoring and good. I believe it was, though I could have probably sung it less like Sanjaya and with a little more energy and edge. 😉 Goes back to my hesitation and holding my voice back to not be too showy, but I will work on that flaw, knowing that the point is to honor God in all things.
Would everyone agree that styles of worship on Sunday should be from leadership decisions based on their hearts prompting and the overall culture of the body in any particular church?
That means modern worship for some, traditional, southern gospel, urban gospel, or even hip hop for others? None are wrong as far as I am concerned, but maybe not all styles are appropriate/best in every situation?
What we should never do in my opinion is to force a style of worship or song style for “shock value” or knowing that many would be offended and to do it anyway. That is not the Spirit’s leading but the flesh.
I for one trust our leadership at GF to be willing to have variety as the Spirit leads them in humility, and that whatever they decide will be God centered, God honoring, and appropriate.
So Guiroo, you described yourself as an “artist”.
Guiroo, the artist formally known as Davo. 😉
Glad it’s all good Larry.
It seems that your questions deal more with the arts. I don’t really see anyone proposing a cooking portion of a worship service. 🙂 The way I view it is dance is just an extension of music and drama is an extension preaching God’s word — much like a preacher uses a story or illustration to make a point — more like a living parable. They are the same “legitimate components” just a different presentation.
Kevin originally posted some good links to more extreme views that only Psalms are legitimate church songs and that the idea that God demands us worship Him in a certain process.
I’ve often heard folks say hip-hop is not music but talking to a beat. If that’s true, then what Curtis did at BBC clearly falls under the category of the preaching of God’s word. 🙂
I encourage you to look at and appreciate the skill and technique involved in hip-hop. It is not just stringing together A-B rhyming pattern as some assume. Consider that to do the lyrical quantity of that one song is like memorizing and repeating the book of 1 John … at a very fast pace … with no room for fault.
“So in that respect yes, if it not only honors and glorifies God but also edifies those gathered on the Lord’s Day as Eric pointed out. I think both of those things must be present though.”
This makes me wonder if we should also define “edify.” Webster says:
But in practice, I tend to think it means something like, “submitting to the majority’s preferences.”
Well, it may get used that way, but the biblical meaning of edify is to build up. If we show that we are Christ’s by our love for one another, then a desire to build each other up in our faith, desiring each other to grow in grace and holiness seems like a natural (and necessary) part of following Christ.
Sometimes edifying means that I limit my own freedom to accommodate another (perhaps I keep my snakes at home:)). Other times it means I help a brother see that he is hung up on a particular form of worship, and I help him to grow by showing him that worship can take various forms (even if it makes him uncomfortable at first).
I am waiting for Gurioo’s next GF promo clip.
The original was classic. “Bring yo Snakes witch-ya”
Maybe the next tag line could be “Bring yo bling witch-ya”. 😉
Yo, yo, yo
Here we go, here we go
Weelll,
its not in due time , but I’ve got a rhyme.
I’ve been on vacation while some were moan’in and cry,in (smile).
In 1984 I was an old school rapper, to “ all my rowdy friends” my music was a real napper.
When I was throw’in head spins, or a backflippen, spectators circled and freaks were a tripp’n
I was like…
Come on, come on…Give it up, give it up.
e.g.
In hotlanta one night at the omni no less,
I went to see the gap band, cause they were the best.
A tiny white dot in a great sea of black, you’d think I was scared but you would be be wack!
(I repent, cause now I’m a liar. I was scared when they screamed” the roof is on fire”!)
Scream it with me now:
The roof……the roof….. the roof is on fire!!
I had this PHILosophy , it was all about me. Encyclopedia Britannica would be my pedigree.
Pop’n & loc’n a rap that would melt Vanilla ice, I might have gone to the top wouldn’t that be nice.
Heeaay,
I was going to church because I was saved. I did’nt see any problem with the way I behaved.
Disenchanted with preachers cause they were all crooks. My heart began to seek cause I had the same look
. (A hypocrite is what I was):
I was so messed up I did’nt know were to begin. Tragedy beat me down I was so deep in sin.
Who was the real God , I wanted to know. I called out to Him but He wouldn’t show.
I sought Him here and over there..He was an abstract piece of wax that people would tear.
Imagine my humiliation, He was right there in His revelation not to mention creation.
“At once I was in the Spirit”
Yeah, Yeah lift up your hands in praise to the ultimate rapper…yeah WORD up!!
Rev.4
and behold,
a throne was standing in heaven, and One sitting on the throne. 1. 3 And He who was sitting was like a jasper stone and a sardius in appearance; and there was a rainbow around the throne, like an emerald in appearance. 4 Around the throne were twenty-four thrones; and upon the thrones I saw twenty-four elders sitting, clothed in white garments, and golden crowns on their heads.
5 Out from the throne come flashes of lightning and sounds and peals of thunder. And there were seven lamps of fire burning before the throne, which are the seven Spirits of God; 6 and before the throne there was something like a sea of glass, like crystal; and in the center and around the throne, four living creatures full of eyes in front and behind. 7 The first creature was like a lion, and the second creature like a calf, and the third creature had a face like that of a man, and the fourth creature was like a flying eagle. 8 And the four living creatures, each one of them having six wings, are full of eyes around and within; and day and night they do not cease to say,
“HOLY, HOLY, HOLY is THE LORD GOD, THE ALMIGHTY, WHO WAS AND WHO IS AND WHO IS TO COME.”
9 And when the living creatures give glory and honor and thanks to Him who sits on the throne, to Him who lives forever and ever, 10 the twenty-four elders will fall down before Him who sits on the throne, and will worship Him who lives forever and ever, and will cast their crowns before the throne, saying, 11 “Worthy are You, our Lord and our God, to receive glory and honor and power; for You created all things, and because of Your will they existed, and were created.”
Now when I’m seen, I’ve got to be clean.
Not because I’m present’n but because I’m represent’n.
My thought’s of low self esteem, melded with high thoughts of Christ supreme.
An unworthy of the human race, chosen by infinite grace.
Comrades; I don’t have a problem with rap or the Voice. That kinda stuff is culture pop and driven by choice .
But here’s a direction that already the vision, enter a holy place and seek His provision.
Think; down on our knees and He’ll lift up our head.
Gimmicks and gadgets are pointless and dead.
Lead me to worship a powerful God. Holy magnificent glory we’ll trod.
Resplendent brightness of kingdom divine, Christ Jesus redeemer of life that’s not mine.
Exalt Him with passion for REVERENCE UPMOST!!! Those that now fear Him, Also love Him the most.
Unspeakable greatness, must be spoken no less. Our Master and Maker must be given our best.
Intentions are tricky and slick as you know.
So Enter in to the throne room and I’ll go where you go.
Your brotha’ In Christ
Blue steel Phil
Phil (aka Blue Steel)
You are a man of many hidden talents and I was very impressed with your life story in “Rap-a-neese”. 😉
Very Cool!
Like Curtis, you put your heart into it, and it shined through!
Thanks for that, and to God be the Glory!!!
BTW…Somebody write this down, cut and paste, and put some music to this for next Sunday morning! It was da-bomb Dawg! 😉