The title of this blog was also a question from this past Grace-Talk session in which people ask anonymous questions that the Pastors of G.F. discuss in front of the church during the normal teaching slot. Due to the amount of questions submitted for the last G.T. session, we were unable to address all of the questions that were turned in. So… it was suggested that these questions would make for good fodder in the blogosphere. OK? Back to the question at hand:
“Can Satan Read Our Thoughts or Place Thoughts in Our Mind?”
What do you think and why?
I think C. S. Lewis would say “yes.” From The Screwtape Letters:
Also, it seems to me that if Satan could not read and influence our thoughts, spiritual warfare would not really be spiritual—that is, he’d have to wait for us to actually say or do something in the physical realm before he’d know anything about our thoughts. It seems unlike such a powerful spiritual being to have to rely on the physical realm in order to inform his spiritual acts of war.
But that’s just what I think…
I haven’t really looked into this yet, but my gut says no, he can’t “put thoughts” into our head. Jeffrey, are you saying that our act of thinking isn’t physical, but is spiritual?
Satan isn’t omnipresent nor is he omniscient. So, without those powers, is it possible to read someone’s thoughts or is it possible to read everyone’s thoughts? Does he have to focus in on one particular person to get in tune with them since he isn’t omniscient?
Time to do a little studying on this. I’ll be back.
Um, I’m thinking that thoughts can’t be quantified or represented physically until the thinker translates them into something physical (action, speech, written word, etc.). So it seems to me that, whether they be spiritual or something else (?), thoughts are non-physical.
Satan’s not omnipresent, but is he outside of time? Would that give him the ability to interact with different parts of our timeline in what seems to be omnipresence to us? Or is he just marginally “faster” than us because he’s spiritual?
Anyway, I’m looking at withdrawing my statement that Satan can influence our thoughts—that may have been a bit hasty. But it still makes sense that he could read our thoughts, because of my reasoning above.
Wayne Grudem disagrees with me (from Systematic Theology):
I dont think Satan has to read our thoughts or infleuence them directly. Temptation and our own sin nature seem to be enough.
On the way home last night I was listening to Dan’s sermon on The Art of War (Part 3), and it really made me think about the way I place my hope in a lot of the wrong things.
It would seem, then, that Dan can “put thoughts into my head.” Not in any omnipotent sense, of course — but when Dan said the things he did, he intended that I should think about them. And I did.
Another Dan story… at the men’s Bible study yesterday, Dan described how he loves to watch how people respond to the questions and answers during GraceTalk. Some get quizzical looks on their faces; others begin taking copious notes… he can tell who’s enthused and who’s confused.
Again, it would seem that Dan can “read people’s thoughts.” Not in any omniscient sense, of course, but certainly in a true sense.
So if Dan can “put thoughts in our heads” and “read our thoughts,” it would seem that Satan can too. But I see no reason to conclude that Satan is any more omnipotent or omniscient with respect to our thoughts than Dan is.
Looking from a different angle and keeping it within our sense of time/existence and not giving every spiritual being the same attributes of God, the question really is:
Are humans and spiritual beings telepathic?
Seeing that we humans only use some miniscule percentage of our brain, I wouldn’t rule it out. This one is for Dan, many alien abduction testimonies report aliens communicating telepathically with each other and the victim.
Hez-blog-lah! 😈
Let me clarify. No, we humans don’t typically go around reading each other’s thoughts, but is it possible for an external spiritual being that is more experienced in using such a sense to receive our thoughts as communication and also transmit its thoughts as communication?
I think the transgender fish are also well experienced in communicating via telepathy. 😉
Jeffrey, that’s a big jump to say that no other power being able to interpret the meaning of the king’s dream concludes that demons can’t read our thoughts. Why would we expect demons to have the gift of biblical prophecy (knowing God’s intention)? Seems unrelated to me.
David Ennis = guiroo
One last thing, I find it interesting that the medium of En-dor could summon Samuel and then have him use the gift of prophecy. 🙂
Lots to think about, will post later when I’m not running off to class. Just a note, though–I said Grudem disagreed with me, not that he’s right in his interpretation of Daniel 2. 😉
I tend to be of the opinion that Satan uses his observations of how we react to the things he throws our way to determine what’s going on ‘inside’ and to decide how to proceed with his attacks. One thing someone noted above I believe is that Satan is not omnipresent so its doubtful any of us as individuals is dealing with him directly since he can only be in one place at a time. I’m sure he goes for the heavy hitters leaving his demons to deal with the likes of me. 🙂
If we look at Job though, we see that Satan did not know Job’s true reasons for serving God, he assumed they were because Job had been materially blessed by God (Job 1:9-10). But he did not know the true state of Job’s spiritual health (i.e. what was going on on the inside). His plan of attack with Job was not through beaming thoughts Job’s way but through changing Job’s physical circumstances and then seeing how Job reacted. Just a thought.
Could Satan and his demons not use both approaches? Could it be that Satan thought that he could change Job’s heart? I’m not saying that Satan and demons have power over our decisions, but that there may be more interaction with the rulers, authorities, powers of this dark world and the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms (Eph 6:12) than we realize.
If we are to test the spirits like 1 John 4 says then that means that evil spirits have got to be communicating with people in some manor outside the five senses.Please allow me some time to make a more exegetically correct point. 🙂
The Greek for “entered” here is “eisercomai” in which one of the definitions is, “of thoughts that come into the mind.”
After examining the actions and intentions of Judas, this seems more like a satanically-initiated, lost, mental/spiritual battle than some sort of head spinning, pea soup vomitting, levitating bed, possession experience.
David, all I got from that 1 Samuel passage was “that’s no moon,” that a medium can kill and cook a calf all in one night, and a lot of questions about the ability to communicate with the dead–even when the dead are in heaven (e.g., was that really Samuel?).
I don’t think humans are telepathic. I think that transsexual demons have been reading my mind, though…
Hugh, I’m not sure if your redefinition of the debate works or not. I think we are still asking whether or not Satan can read our minds, not “read our minds.” I possess a presupposition that Satan can give me evil thoughts directly, but it’s vague, like a lot of my thinking on Satan.
So far, I’ve distilled two questions:Are thoughts/thinking spiritual, physical, or something else?Are Satan and the demons outside of time, and what does it mean to this issue if they are/aren’t?Larry, you’re right–I don’t think we are dealing with Satan directly. I took the question to mean Satan, the demons, and comparable beings. That’s a good argument that you give concerning Job. I just wonder if our indwelling of the Holy Spirit changes things from Job’s time.
Per David’s last comment, is it possible that Satan can enter the minds of nonbelievers only? How then can we interact with the spiritual forces against us? As I said before, it seems lame spiritual warfare if Satan can only use the physical world to wage his spiritual offensive. The “flaming darts of the evil one” (Ephesians 6) may be thoughts. Otherwise, what are they?
Satan communicated directly with Jesus during His temptation. Was this mental or physical or both? If it was mental in some way, then Satan must have been able to communicate thoughts directly with Christ.
How did Satan incite David to number Israel? Did he plant that idea in his mind? If not, how else did David think of it? The idea to number Israel had to originate in someone’s head, whether in David’s or an advisor’s. If Satan is given credit for inciting David to this action, didn’t he have to be involved somehow in planting the thought?
At one point, Christ called Peter “Satan” because he saw Satan’s influence on what Peter was saying to Him. It is interesting to note the words of Jesus: “For you are not setting your mind on the things of God, but on the things of man.” He calls Peter “Satan,” and then attributes the satanic behavior to Peter’s thoughts…hmmm.
Peter later says that Satan has filled the heart of Ananias. He was obviously not possessed, but somehow Satan had influence over his desires and thoughts.
Satan is also called the Deceiver. His deceptions are thoughts, are they not? How else are they communicated to us? We don’t run across four-legged serpents that talk to us these days.
And perhaps the biggest question of all: What happens if you don’t pay your exorcist? You get repossessed…
If they can read our thoughts, could they read Jesus’ thoughts? Would Satan have ever sent Jesus to the cross if he knew what was going on in Jesus’ head?
Kind of reminds me of a bad sci-fi movie where the hero has to converse with telepathic, alien children, all the while putting up a mental brick wall so they wouldn’t figure out his plan to destroy them.
It is possible that Jesus was stronger in Jedi mind tricks. “This is not the savior you’re looking for. You can go about your business … move along.” 😉
Jeffrery said:
“I don’t think humans are telepathic. I think that transsexual demons have been reading my mind, though…”
Yeah, that’s just part of the territory living down there off of North Avenue though.
Jeffrey said:
“…was that really Samuel?”
The text doesn’t say:
“the likeness of Samuel”
“the demon posing as Samuel”
“what Saul thought was Samuel”
The text says:
Samuel, defined as “son of Elkanah by his wife Hannah and judge or prophet of Israel during the days of Saul and David”
Also looking at the last supper:
“During supper, the devil having already put into the heart of Judas Iscariot, the son of Simon, to betray Him…”
Interesting definition of the word “put” here: To give over to one’s care uncertain about the result.
The same word for “devil” is also used in the account of Jesus’ temptation in the desert. So was Judas dealing with literal satanic influence or was Jesus just battling his own fleshly weakness?
Several very good points Jeffery, especially the incident where David was ‘incited’ to number Israel. Where, as you say, did that thought come from? (If that’s what the original wording meant by ‘incited’, that would be an interesting thing to research)
I do think also that our being filled with the Holy Spirit comes into play. Judas was not a believer and so when I hear Satan ‘entered him’ I take it to be a form of demon possession (whatever that looks like, the pea soup thing is only a Hollywood version), which cannot happen to Christians. The same with Ananias, I don’t think we can say he was ‘obviously’ not possessed because we don’t know in all cases what that looks like. The question there is was Ananias a believer? I’ve always heard that the fact that Satan ‘filled his heart’ was proof that he was not.
On the time thing, my take would be that all of creation is time-bound and Satan is a created being. Only God is outside of time because only God is uncreated and eternal.
Anyway, just some more thoughts…
In our experience as physical beings, we do not have direct access to the thoughts and emotions of others. Likewise, no physical being has direct insight into our thoughts and emotions. We mortals can infer such things, suppose what they are, etc., but direct access is excluded.
On the other hand, in the unseen, spiritual realm, three questions arise (note that I am assuming that our capacities of thought and emotion are spiritual functions, not physical ones):
1. Do purely spiritual beings (e.g., angels, Satan) have direct access to our thoughts and/or emotions?
2. If so, do they have the same sort of direct access that God does?
3. If not, do they nevertheless have more direct access than we do when it comes to these things?
Some more:
4. Do pure spirits have direct access to the thoughts and emotions of other pure spirits? For example, can angels read each other’s minds?
5. If pure spirits have some kind of special insight into the disposition of our souls, how does that work? Is it the marriage of body and soul that gives them that advantage?
Sidenote: We westerners tend to think of angels and demons (pure spirits) as non-physical beings that are limited in their ability to interact in our “known” physical world. But they do indeed have the ability to effect and fully interact with the physical world. Otherwise, we reduce them to the likes of “holograms.”
In my imagination, I can see Balaam’s donkey not stopping and the image of a semi-transparent angel desperately swinging its sword yelling, “Take that! And that!” as Balaam and his donkey continue to walk right on by. 🙂
So is “pure spirit” not “physical”? Or just a different deminsion of “physical?”
More:
If thoughts/emotions are either all physical or a combination of physical or spiritual then you must assume that thinking, emoting angels and demons are also either purely physical or partially physical.
Hugh,
1. Maybe
2. No
3. Maybe
4. Maybe
5. I wouldn’t say “special insight into the disposition of our souls.” That seems like it would be God territory. When thinking of “direct access to our thoughts”, think of having a totally honest conversation about whatever comes to mind without ever using your mouth. Just like having an audible conversation, a mental conversation still leaves you in control and responsible for the desires of your heart/soul. Many wretched things have crossed my mind. Whether I initiated them all, I don’t know, but I’ve nurtured the ones I wanted to.
Great discussion. Thanks for the input. It is helpful for everyone to consider the various angles on this subject.
What have we determined? Anyone want to try and summerize your position based on where we are right now?
My answers to Hugh’s queries:
Like David’s “hologram” anecdote, we can’t limit spiritual beings to interaction that is purely spiritual, any more than we can limit them to what is purely physical. The full extent and ramifications of their power in each realm will perhaps remain a mystery to men, in addition to the powers available at each level of “spiritual hierarchy” (Colossians 1:16 and implied elsewhere).
I don’t think thoughts are physical. There is nothing in the physical world that can explain consciousness. I wouldn’t expect to be able to quanitfy thoughts or emotions in a physical way, either. This answers Pat’s earlier question to me in some more detail than before—I think our act of thinking is spiritual on a very important level.
I suppose that the summary of my position is that, with the examples given in Scripture of angels’ and demons’ power over men, it would seem that they can delve into our thoughts to some extent, perhaps even presenting a thought in our minds “out of left field” to tempt us (not to discredit our own primary role in temptation, as James reminds us). They certainly don’t have any God-like power in this arena, but they are undeniably more powerful than we are. It also seems a problem for Satan’s war against humanity if he can’t interact with us on a spiritual basis (through the mind). It also seems evident that indwelling of the Holy Spirit may play some role in preventing such powers from being used against Christians—but we experience spiritual warfare, also.
I believe Satan cannot read our minds and the following are some of the reasons:
1. No Scripture indicates that Satan can directly.
2. Satan seems to seek control in ways that would not make sense if he could place thoughts in our minds (I believe Job is the best example of this point).
3. Satan is bound to a local and, therefore, is limited in such a way that would also include the reading a person’s mind.
Dan, your #3 doesn’t make sense. That’s like saying, “Birds have feet, therefore, they cannot fly.” 🙂
Regarding #1. The scriptures are silent on this. It doesn’t prove one or the other.
Regarding #2, you assume Satan had not been tempting Job at all before and in other methods when Satan tells God that Job only remains faithful because God has blessed him “financially.”
In regard to #3: I agree, poorly worded. I mean that all Satan could do is read or put thoughts into one person’s mind at any one moment at any one point on the earth. Therefore, two people could not both be having thoughts put into their minds by Satan. So, one person is wrong. If both have the same belief with similiar thoughts, it stands to reason that it must be something other than Satan since he can’t be both places, doing both things at the same time.
#1. – I agree.
#2. – Sure, I am assuming. We all are due to #1.
Satan is a lot more powerful than you give him credit for, you’re underestimating him!! I’ve have been through many difficult spiritual battles and Satan uses mental telepathy to put thoughts into our thoughts. I have always won because God is so much greater than the devil. It didn’t matter how many Satanist’s I was around, I would overcome them with good. If there was no goodness in the place where I’ve been like the devils lair, I would flee but seldomly has that occurred!! Satan used mental telepathy on Jesus Christ during the temptation, when he showed Jesus Christ all of the kingdoms of the world and all of their glory in a moment of time(mental telepathy)!! Jesus Christ rebuked the devil by quoting the Word of God throughout the entire temptation and the devil knew he lost.
“If both have the same belief with similiar thoughts, it stands to reason that it must be something other than Satan since he can’t be both places, doing both things at the same time.”
You are correct, but we aren’t dealing with just one enemy bound by time and space.
“For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms.”