The following is from: The Soul Winner, by Charles Haddon Spurgeon
Another proof of the conquest of a soul by Christ will be found in a real change of life. If the man does not live differently from what he did before, both at home and abroad, his repentance needs to be repented of and his conversion is a fiction. There must be harmony between the life and the profession. If a Christian professes to renounce sin and if he does not do so, his very name is an imposture.
The following is from: I Call It Heresy, by A.W. Tozier
No one would ever dare to rise in a meeting and say, “I am a Christian” if he had not surrendered his whole being to God and had taken Jesus Christ as his Lord as well as his Savior, and had brought himself under obedience to the will of the Lord. It was only then that he could say, “I am saved.” Today, we let them say they are saved no matter how imperfect and incomplete the transaction, with the proviso that the deeper Christian life can be tacked on at some time in the future. Can it be that we really think we do not owe Jesus Christ our obedience? We have owed Him our obedience ever since the second we cried out to Him for salvation, and if we do not give Him that obedience, I have reason to wonder if we are really converted! They thought of the Lord as a hospital and Jesus as chief of staff to fix up poor sinners who had gotten into trouble! “Fix me up, Lord,” they have insisted, so that “I can go my own way!” That is bad teaching, brethren.
The Spurgeon quote reminds me of the Charlie Peacock tune, William & Maggie:
All of the commentaries and opinions of these godly men are very interesting and insightful, but we must keep in mind that they are just that; commentaries and opinions of men. It is very easy to place the words of these particular men on par with scripture since they are so well known and revered. True “Champions of the Faith”. With anyone’s opinions we must put it in the light of scripture, form our own opinions, and take with us the good ideas and insights. Issues such as these that can have more than one legitimate side.
There are plenty of other commentaries I could post that would differ with some of these posted commentaries about how a life change simply cannot and should not be measured in someone who had professed Christ as Savior.
I am personally somewhere between what these mean are talking about and the opinion of Free Grace. Free Grace meaning that salvation is a free gift and God made it easy because we are so dumb. There is lots of talk these days about a changed life to somehow prove it afterwards, but unfortunately we have no measuring stick in scripture to know just how evident that change is supposed to be. Similar to the question of how good do we have to be to get saved? We can’t be good enough! We are all different and have different experiences. While our salvation/justification is more than just saying some magic words in a prayer, it is the faith of a mustard seed that saves us IMO.
If we try to judge ourselves or others true justification based solely on how we feel or how others are living in our own opinions, this is a slippery slope indeed.
There is my two cents…
This sums up very close to my personal belief in a nutshell. So beautiful and simple. Blessed Assurance!
Also from Spurgeon…
Excerpt from…
A Free Grace Promise
Delivered by
C. H. SPURGEON,
At the Metropolitan Tabernacle, Newington,
On Thursday Evening, October 11th, 1888.
What is wanted, then, is salvation; and I do think, beloved brethren, that you and I who preach the Word, and long to save souls, must very often go over this grand old truth about salvation to the guilty, deliverance to all who call upon the name of the Lord. Sometimes we talk to friends about the higher life, about attaining to very high degrees of sanctity; and all this is very proper and very good; but still the great fundamental truth is, Whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved. We urge our friends to be sound in doctrine, and to know what they do know, and to understand the revealed will of God; and very proper is this also; but still, first and foremost, this is the elementary, all important truth Whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved. To this old foundation truth we come back for comfort. I sometimes rejoice in God, and joy in the God of my salvation, and spread my wings and mount up into communion with the heavenlies; but still there are other seasons when I hide my head in darkness, and then I am very glad of such a broad, gracious promise as this, Whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved. I find that my sweetest, happiest, safest state, is just as a poor, guilty, helpless sinner, to call upon the name of the Lord, and take mercy at his hands as one who deserves nothing but his wrath, while I dare hang the weight of my soul on such a sure promise as this, Whosoever shall can on the name of the Lord shall be saved. Get where you may, however high your experience; be what you may, however great your usefulness, you will always want to come back to the same ground upon which the poorest and weakest of hearts must stand, and claim to be saved by almighty grace, through simply calling upon the name of the Lord.
I agree with your statement on caution when considering the merits of these men’s words, or any man’s word. The Bible is the ultimate authority. However, I think you are not being distinct enough in your posts between the act of being saved, your last post, and the evidences of one who has been saved, your first post.
Clearly the Scriptures teach that faith without works is a faith that was never real to begin with (see James 2:17-18) The yardstick that you mention in your first post is not an objective standard to be found in Scripture. Rather, it is subjective, relative to the person who was saved. In addition, it is progressive. As the person with true faith matures and grows in their faith in Christ, a more clear pattern of works attesting to their legitimate conversion will become evident.
Just because there is no clear cut yardstick does not mean that we should not assess ourselves and our salvation. In fact, Philippians 2:12 gives us that very command. We are to work out our salvation and we can have that assurance if we are obedient to God’s word.
It’s so true that the best of men are men at best. However, the example of teaching gone by can be highly instramental to the case for or against a given subject. This can be especially true due the fact that one can see what was taught and then measure the activity from those who taught and heard the teaching. Example: I can see the life and teaching of Robert Schuller and I can see the effects that his teaching has had in the people who look to him for guidance.
It is absolutly true that salvation is by grace through faith alone. However, the evidence of a true profession will be a lifestyle conformed to God’s Word. Certainly, a lifestyle riddled with struggle until we are home with Jesus, but even a person’s struggle conformes to God’s Word. We are not talking perfection, but direction.
I submit to Scripture for clarification and support:
I think the Apostle John’s point is very clear.
BTW. I will be presenting how loving other Christians and obeying the commands of Jesus work together to give assurance to those with true faith or devastate those with false faith in the teaching on 09.25.05.
Sounds great Dan. I look forward to tomorrow’s teaching!
Pat, some sincere and even great theologians would disagree with your view of of James chapter 2. Some believe that the faith without works being dead does not mean those people are not justified, but that it is a faith that will make no impact on the world as the context discusses showing others our faith as a testimony. You can call it an “incorrect interpretation”, but many sincere people do believe this. These same verses are what many Catholics use to try convince protestants that works are required for salvation. That faith and works are one and required for justification.
Please read this sermon from John Wesley. You might think this is heretical from your perspective, but this is in many way closer to my own stance. The main part of this sermon is dealing with pre-destination, but it goes heavily into an over emphasis on the good works after salvation, and how it can make our lives cloudy, unhappy, and even steal our joy if we don’t live from the joy of our assurance forward instead of always questioning our justification by our works. Living and serving out of gratitude instead of obligation and fear. And worse, constantly judging other’s standing with God.
http://gbgm-umc.org/UMhistory/Wesley/sermons/serm-128.stm
Admittedly Wesley is a bit harsh and sure of his own opinions here, but it is a good read nonetheless and I think makes some valid points. It was also good to see that the UMC did take some strong theological stands at one time. 😉
Thanks for your comments and I appreciate the dialogue on this important subject as we discuss the current teaching.
Please checkout the blog from Ken on Tony Campolo as I ask the burning question about can “Gay Christians” be Christians at all in the light of Dan’s current teaching. It goes well with this subject.
This morning’s teaching was tough to deal with. On one hand we are told that we are not to expect perfection in our own lives after being born again, but to live persistently, and that there would be continual struggles. On the other we were told that when it comes to not loving or hating a brother in Christ there is no “wiggle room” as to whether we are truly born again or not. If you do not love then you are not in the faith. Wow! That strikes me as not consistant.
There was no discussion about resting in the never changing truth of God’s promises to us in His Word to give us assurance, nor eternal security and joy as while “we are faithless He is faithful”. This morning’s solution again was what we do, how we feel, and how we act for confidence or assurance.
I think all would agree that we were not worthy of His forgiveness before being born again, nor can we do anything enough to prove our love for Him afterwards. All of our own deeds or good works are as “filthy rags”.
The natural side-effect of this “confidence/evidence” theology is to become haughty or arrogant that we are among the redeemed because we live it every day. We only deserve His wrath. Thanks be to God for
His unmspeakable gift!
We deserve nothing and nothing we have done in the past or in the future will merit His favor, and we somehow must measure our own deeds and come up with our own personal measuring stick to judge ourselves to see if we are in the faith?
Where does that madness end? Taking this literally we will never be assured 100% because if our own good works were not good enough in God’s eyes why should it then be good enough in our own eyes? I refuse to live my life with a constant set of checks and balances and always wondering for sure of my standing with God if I trip up badly enough, or have a moment of lacking faith.
I will rest on the promise that God offers the free gift of salvation to all who believe. Both to the “Jew and also the Greek”. This concept was reduced to no more than a worthless “checklist” in today’s teaching. Somehow the evidence is overemphasized and the act of being born again is non-existent.
I will live and serve Jesus because of gratitude and joy for what He did for me, and what He promises in His Word. Real freedom! With the power of the Holy Spirit in my life I choose to serve the Lord. Me and my house. We choose to serve.
This is more than likely my final blog entry with GF…blessings to you all in your journey with Christ.
C.A. – I hope to address two of your points. I agree that we can to nothing to merit God’s favor. But we must take inventory of our lives. Paul tells us to measure in 2 Corinthians 13-
Second point…
Whether we are called to love God or love our brother, they are both standards only achieved through God’s Grace. Remember the teaching in 1 John is in light of Jesus’ sacrifice for us and how we know we are saved. That’s the glue found here:
We are saved by grace. And that same grace should influence our lives everyday. I am not arrogant because I see sanctification’s work in my life. Quite the opposite, I am humbled. I give glory to God that He alone has changed me through His grace.
Hard teaching is just that, hard. Please don’t check out because you have been challenged in your thinking. Let the entire weight of Scripture win out.
C.A. – Our desire at Grace Fellowship is and, by God’s grace, will always be to never dilute the free gift of salvation based on the life/death and ressurection of Jesus Christ alone. Our only hope is to trust in Christ alone for a relationship with God. I cannot say it clear enough that works, regardless of when they occur, cannot merit me/us anything in the eyes of God due to His holiness. Our merit can only be found when God views us through the actions of Christ and this begins when we place our trust in Him (Period).
As we discussed in your home this past week, God-authored faith always produces what it was made to produce – “good works” (Eph. 2:10). These works were intended before time began and must occur due to God’s intention that they will happen. If faith is not evidenced then it cannot be in line with God’s plan and, therefore, not legitimate faith from Him. Make sense? Again, salvation is a one time act by which we were not trusting Christ and then came to trust Christ alone for our righteousness before God. The Apostle John is teaching that when a person trusts with the type of trust that is legitimate that it will produce fruit consistent with that type of belief. It is the nature of authentic, saving faith. Perfect? No. Pattern/desire/hunger? Absolutly. How else could faith be measured. How would we know anything of any person if we say that a belief can be completly vacant of any action? For example: If I say, “I love soccer.” “I live for soccer.” “All I think about is soccer,” and yet when asked by someone, “What league are you in” or “When was the last time you played soccer?” To which I reply, “I am in no league and I have never played soccer.” How would my profession be measured in light of my life? I would be judged as either a liar or a lunatic.
Therefore, we are talking about two things: Justification – how I come to Christ, and sactification – how I grow in Christ. Both are based on faith and that faith shows itself accoring to the Biblical pattern given by Christ and the Apostles.
I hope that helps. I would love to meet with you at any time to dialogue further. We love you and your family and desire to serve you in any way possible.
Hey CA, sorry I haven’t really been following this thread. Gots a question for ya. (Yeah I know, it’s always a question.)
Over in the homosexuality thread you seemed to agree with the idea of:
Why can’t that be applied to a different lifestyle sin (the opposite of “pot hole sin”), such as hate?
You can’t check out once ya got the discussion going, the dialogue stretches us all – see also my disagreement on the Pledge. Like Tony C. said about the dialog between him and his wife – we ALL must be willing to listen and learn.
I’d “hate” to see ya go. ;^) (Oh the humanity of Ken’s influence on our sense of humor!)
OK…I will try to make this brief as I realize after yesterday that the chasm is too great between our views to be resolved, or for our minds to be changed.
I have not been challenged in my thinking at all as I am full aware of the verses you quoted in light of the current teaching, and of that “theological viewpoint”. Just never to the extreme that I have heard the past few weeks on Sunday.
Would you say the verse about examining ourselves is something we are supposed to be doing continually, or was this intended as a one time event, or for someone not sure of their salvation? Personally I think this verse does not relate to salvation/justification at all, but to Christians being faithful and obedient since the letter was written to believers. If you believe the former, then you are asking to constantly question/examine our current standing with God salvation/justification only by our works, feelings, or conscience (with a matching profession), and not as much if at all from the faithfulness of God’s promises in His Word such as His promise to us that “we are sealed” and “know that we have eternal life” by simply understanding our state as sinner, our need for a savior, our total unworthiness and His greatness, being sorry for our sins, that Jesus came and died for us, and that by believing in Him and/placing our trust in him and accepting the free gift He offers, we can have forgiveness of sin, live abundantly and fulfilled with purpose, joy and gratitude in service, power to turn from sin, and most importantly life eternally with Him. I have not heard that the past few weeks on Sunday. I know you all believe this to some extent, but the works and evidence are so over-emphasized in my opinion. What is more reliable? Our actions and emotions (feelings) or God’s Word? There’s the rub from our perspective.
Free Grace is more than just a checklist, or saying magic words. It is the realization of what He did, our sorrow for sin, and belief and acceptance of the substitutional payment on the cross for us. I think that only quoting verses and talking about a “life change” or “measurable changed behavior”, while not discussing any verses of God’s free gift or “whosoever shall call”, or giving some credence to God’s promises in balance to encourage us for assurance or confidence is only showing half of the story in my opinion. That is the “entire weight of scripture”, and currently for us the teaching is not balancing out.
The reformed position of GF on this subject is important enough that we now believe we need to “check out” and not continually be frustrated ourselves, and confusing our children more than they already are on issues of faith, salvation, and justification.
Thanks for your concern and genuine love for me and my family.
That’s all folks…..
To David. Thanks! If you read my blogs about the homosexual issue carefully, I made it very clear that I did not agree with the current teaching series 100%, but the issue was very interesting when placed in the light of the current teaching, and because most only wanted to discuss genetics and presdispisitions. So in the light of the current teaching they could not be Christians. Just to make it clear that I was not being inconsistant and at the least I was being a little sarcastic out of interest.
My personal views are not so cut and dry on this point, as I don’t and won’t base mine of anyone else’s standing with God based only on the outward if they are professing Christ. Deceived or blinded, yes, not really born again, maybe. But only God really knows. This is why the chasm is wider than I originally believed.
Au revoir Mes Ami…
BTW…my comments below Dan’s was in response to Kevin and not to Dan. You can tell from the posted times that I was typing mine while Dan was posting his.
C.A:
Much love to you and your family.
This church, the leaders, the statement of faith etc., all profess and embrace that we are justified by grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone to the glory of God alone.
or said another way:
Faith alone in Christ alone(his atoning work on the cross) by God’s grace alone = Salvation by God alone and for the glory of God alone which yields good works.
Personally, I know that I came to a place in my life where I recognized my sinful condition and the fact that I was in willful violation of the laws and standards of Holy God. Desperately, I recognized my need for a Savior and by God’s grace repented of my sins and trusted in who Christ is and what Christ did on the cross. My justification came not from merit but from God’s mercy and grace for me. To Him be the glory!
My eternal security is wrapped up not in my ability to do anything, but rather in what Christ has done.
Yet, I still sin. I am definitely a work-in-progress. Yet He who began the good work will be faithful to complete it.
But if my life is characterized by disobedience, and lack of contrition and despite please of brothers and sister to repent, I deny God, refuse to acknowledge that Jesus is God or that He rose from the dead, or refuse to acknowledge that I am a sinner, then I or other people should not be confident that I am a believer-because my life does not reflect one who recognizes their need for Christ and His forgiveness.
People could certainly remind me of times when I did profess to believe these things, they could bring witnesses, even bring me to the church. But at the end of the day, if I refused to profess that Jesus is God and also refuse to even acknowledge that He resurrected from the dead, the last thing I would want is people to convince me that I am a believer-because my life gives indications of the opposite.
If I was saved, then God knows. But in this example, there is no indication of that and certainly no assurance. So what should people do for me?
Share the law and the gospel wioth me and pray that God might reveal Himself to me. For it is only by His grace alone that I will ever be saved.
To answer your question regarding what is more reliable
As a believer, the Bible says we should examine ourselves, not against our feelings, but against the objective standards of God.
Every day (God willing) I need to recognize my need for God’s grace and my dependency on Him. A healthy pattern of a believer is to confess their sins, recognize their need for Christ, thank God for His goodness towards us, and to ask God to give us a burden and ability to serve Him by sharing the gospel and meeting the needs of our neighbors.
C.A., I hope you know you are loved and appreciated. We would love to dialogue further on this and other issues.
So I am really confused now. I thought you were arguing that homosexuals couldn’t possibly be Christians – based on their actions.
Now I’m wondering what exactly in the teaching you have a problem with. I find it ironic that GF be considered having too much works-based teaching – knowing the folks involved, that is something I would have never guessed. 🙂 Maybe it’s not balanced in the series but from what is usually taught on the whole at GF, I find it to be a nice kick in the pants to those of us that need to evaluate our fruit. Note, I did not say, “other people’s fruit.”
I like to define things. I was just studying the word “hate” and how John was using it here.
IMO, a professing believer that hates other christians seems less possible than a professing believer that justifies having committed relations with the same gender.
This brings up a lot of questions regarding “intent” that I will submit to the next GraceTalk, thx!
“So I am really confused now. I thought you were arguing that homosexuals couldn’t possibly be Christians – based on their actions.”
Please don’t be confused. I was not trying to bait anyone. Just in knowing the leadership’s stance and recent teaching series, and because everyone was so stuck on genetics and predisposition, I wanted to shake things up and throw out the concept that a homosexual that professes Christ and has no guilt or remorse simply cannot be saved. That is according to the current teaching series 100% accurate.
I might question that person’s standing too, but can I personally say absolutely, positively 100%? I cannot. Only God IMO. The current teaching was absolute with no “wiggle room”. That is where I have take issue. I don’t want to always be the judge of other’s situations. I want to love them either to Christ or back to Christ. That is all I can do.
OK..really want to wrap this up.
Thanks everyone for your sincerity and love to me and my family!
CA, I believe we as believers can self-deceive ourselves about different things everyday – gluttony, stealing, even homosexuality – but overall there is that general progression that should be occurring in at least some area of our lives … finishing the work He has started in us. (Not expecting a response, just posting my view that wasn’t posted on the other thread.)
Now I’m pondering the idea of “hating your brother” and what John really means by this statement that allows no “wiggle room” (1 John 2:9). Dan, is John saying hatred of a Christian brother is an unforgivable sin or an impossible act for a real Christian to commit?
Anybody got any examples of Christians HATING their Christian brother and the thought process there? Racism? Anything else?
Here’s a line from an email discussion I had with John Lee and my final thoughts on this….
“Just give me the formula for that yardstick/measuring stick for good works for my own life, and I will gladly renounce everything I wrote above.”
I’m reminded of Jesus’ teaching that hating your brother was the spiritual equivalent of murder.
(Sorry to have crossed C.A.’s post… my last post was tacking on to David’s entry.)
On the “balance of Scripture” subject… John MacArthur draws out the contrast between John’s and Paul’s emphases in his intro to 1 John:
MacArthur, J. J. (1997, c1997). The MacArthur Study Bible (electronic ed.) (1 Jn 1:1). Nashville: Word Pub.
Thinking of the thief on the cross, the parable of the sower, and what I know of love … there is no formula. All the thief did was acknowledge he as a sinner and who Christ was. While in the parable of the sower Christ gives the illustration of people that spring up in new life but get “choked out” or distracted by the desire for things of the world – the idea here is “growth and fruit” on a relative level – not a measured ruler.
And then I think of love and marriage. I entered into a marriage covenant vowing to love and charish Regina. Of what validity would our marriage be if I didn’t love her but relied on the document that I got from the courthouse? In a relationship you have concern for the other person. You care about what they care about – unless it’s macrame of course. Christ said that those who love Him obey his commandments – not perfectly but as a general pattern.
But you know what? Even doing good, Christian, things isn’t enough – and for our moralistic society that is an even more frightening idea. “But Lord, we cast out demons in your name?”
Especially living in suburban America, the parable of the sower strikes fear in my heart. Introspection is good in that you ask questions that lead in the progression of:
1. Am I obeying the Lord?
2. Why am I compromising?
3. Does that mean I don’t take my faith seriously?
4. Could it even be real?
We need to keep a progress report or one day we may hear the words, “Hey, gold-digger, I never knew you … take a hike.”
David, in response to your question:
In context, there were teachers and people who seem to have been breaking the commands of Christ and from that were treating people in unloving ways. Hence, the background section on the right side of the teaching guide outlining the life and teaching of Nicolas.
Note: This is also why I have included contextual information each week in order to frame the teaching.
I believe the Apostle John goes from obeying Jesus to loving others because he wants those who are reading this letter to make that specific connection. Jesus makes this connection, see John 13:34; 15:10; I John 2:5; 4:12 (notice how the word “complete” is used in reference to obeying Christ’s commands and loving our brothers/sisters in Christ).
Therefore, John uses the terms “hate” and “love” to describe the true internal orientation of a person. If they are hurting (hating) those who follow Christ yet refuse to obey Christ’s commands due to their unloving actions; they are not acting like a Christian and cannot rightfully claim to be one. “Teachers” who were essentially saying, “Hey grow up,” or “You are immature and unspiritual,” to those in the church and that was devastating people. So, John says they may claim to be spiritual, but they are in actuality hating their brother. John does not want the false teachers to have any “wiggle room” to say, “The Apostle John misunderstands me.” Nor is the excuse, “I am spiritual and I am teaching God’s truth” legitimate to disobey Christ by abusing Christians acceptable at any time. The Apostle is drawing a clear and clean line between false teaching and those who have bought into the lie that I can actively hate my brother or sister in Christ and claim to be a Christian.
Jesus reserved some of His harshest words (Matt. 18:1-10), for those who claim to be a child of His, yet causes “one of these little ones (believers) to stumble.” He says, it would be better “to have a large milestone hung around his neck and to be drowned in the depth of the sea.” When confronted with how they are treating a follower of Christ, the Spirit of Christ in that person should bring the offender to repentance. When a person claims to be a Christian, yet offends or causes another Christian to sin; that is hateful activity. When a person is confronted with this type of action, in light of Jesus’ own commands, and they do not repent, they lose assurance that they are a follower of Christ.
Note: See Matt. 18:1-10. In v. 12 Matthew speaks to the priority/value of even one follower of Christ and God’s care/concern for even one who follow His Son – v.14. Also, notice how 18:15 and the church’s response to the person who refuses to repent of sinful activity – “treat him as you would a pagan or a tax collector.” A pagan or tax collector is a person who needs to hear the Gospel of repent and believe. So, a person breaking the commands of Christ leads to sinful activity, and the person who teaches or models this to young believers is guilty of hating those who look to them for guidance, and when this characterizes a person it robes them of the confidence to claim that they are a genuine Christian because of how they are acting.
Bottom line: “hating your brother” is not the unforgivable sin (we will touch on this subject in this week’s teaching) because I can act in unloving and even, at times, hateful ways toward other followers of Christ. However, I cannot have a life characterized by being unloving and causing a brother in Christ to sin. Again, John uses the terms : “anyone” and “whoever” along with the present tense – a lifestyle, to indicate the “walk” of a person. It’s direction not perfection.
Make sense?
Formula:
1. Recognize sinful condition before Holy God.
2. Trust Christ’s atonement alone.
3. Thank God for the unmerited grace He has given us.
4. Examine my life in light of what Christ has done. Do have a desire to honor God in my life? Do I recognize that Jesus Christ is God? Do I believe that He alone provides salvation? Do I desire that God would mold me, change me, help me, to be more like His Son? Am I sorrowful and repentant when I sin? Do I love others? Do I desire to please God in the way that I live my life?
This is certainly not an exhaustive list, but can certainly be used to gauge my desire to know God and to please him.
The Westminster Confession states that “the chief end of man is to glorify God and enjoy Him forever.” As a believer do I seek to do that now and forever? To the degree that I do, to God be the glory. To the degree that I do not, God please forgive me and help me to change.
Hello….I’m back for a minor curtain call.
Amazing that Dan referenced Matthew 18. Just today my wife Mary brought this very passage up and for me makes it clear that a brother can sin against a brother (hate or other sins) and not be repentant or want to make things right. It is possible. The entire passage is referring to this individual as a “brother”. If they continually choose to not want to make things right or repent (listen), we are told to treat that person AS a pagan or tax collector, but not that this individual IS now a pagan. Was he a brother before and now he is not one? Why would he be called a brother if he ended up not being one at all? Am I wrong?
Thanks Dan and Kevin for your insights and clarification about direction not perfection. I did not get that from Sunday’s teaching as it came across to me as an absolute with “no wiggle room”. I guess that was true in the passage on Sunday, but only to those John was writing to because he knew the specifics of their situation.
Do I at least have that much right?
If so, then unfortunately, I did not grasp or understand the contextual information you mentioned Sunday or the week before, but only applied your teaching directly as if it was written directly to us. You might need to clarify that in a stronger way on Sundays for the weaker minds such as mine. 😉 This was the basis for our concerns.
Here’s the text.
Matt 18:15-17
“If your brother sins against you, go and show him his fault, just between the two of you. If he listens to you, you have won your brother over. But if he will not listen, take one or two others along, so that ‘every matter may be established by the testimony of two or three witnesses.’If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church; and if he refuses to listen even to the church, treat him as you would a pagan or a tax collector.
Dear C.A.:
How do we treat a pagan or a tax collector?
We share the gospel and trust that God will convict them of their sins and lead them to trust in Christ.
I John was written in response to much false teaching that was going on about the way people could or should live. John was specifically addressing these issues.
I John was not written to us…but it was written for us. As with any Scripture, we should look at the context in which it was written.
Thanks for asking your questions. (sounds like some good Grace Talk discussion 😉 .
I believe you are correct in the sense that we can’t judge people’s eternal salvation based on their works but we are given the authority to exercise church discipline based on their works.
As for assurance, that person has some serious thinking to do based on Jesus’ words. Are they willing to dig their feet in with the expectations that they we will hear the words “welcome good and faithful servant” or will there be punishment waiting because the whole fascade of their faith was really based on greed and pride (ie. comfort through tradition, power through religion, fire insurance for when it’s all been said and done)?
Dan, I need to read that extra reading too. Maybe you could post it here since the notes aren’t online yet. Thx!
(Noticed after I posted.) Oooooo, good point Kevin.
David, What “extra reading” are you refering to?
BTW. We had technical difficulty with this past week’s recording. It was recorded again and should be posted soon.
THAT extra reading. :^)
David, Your wish is my command… See the Sept. 28. entry for the start of a new string.
I am having software trouble with the blog upload. I will try to solve it soon. However, I have e-mailed the note guide to Eric and he should post it soon. Sorry.
Dan
Yeah, I don’t know if I ever set up the “upload” capabilities in the admin. Sorry! I’ll put that on the list. :^)
I must be honest and say that I have not been reading anything on the teaching guide other than the teaching itself as we follow along with Dan. Especially since I like most pick one up just before the service starts, and initially focus on the “other” sheet with the announcements since they are discussed at the very beginning.
Having to read a bunch of extra stuff (though good stuff Dan) just before Dan is starting or while he is starting to teach would make me miss something he had to say.
Maybe this stuff was intended for people to look over afterwards, but in light of my recent confusion and misunderstandings it might help to go over this at the beginning or during teaching.
Very humbly requested…..
I see what you are saying Kevin, and I agree with that in light of what David said afterwards.
(Kevin) Treat them like they are not saved, but it is not ultimately up to us to know for sure. (David)
Ying and Yang…Thanks Guys!
Is this verse asking those people to ignore that person or cast him out, or still show love and take time with that person in hopes they will repent one day?
It seems that the point here is that there are clear steps of escalation in dealing with this. You go to the person, then bring someone with you, then take it before the church. This kind of means all reasonable efforts have been taken to try and “lead them to repentance” already.
Kevin Wrote…
“We share the gospel and trust that God will convict them of their sins and lead them to trust in Christ”
But isn’t the point that this person does not seem to be caring or listening to council? Should we keep trying, or should we just keep praying for them and move on?
Inquiring minds want to know…..
I don’t want to submit 57 grace talk questions, so it we can get some of them answered here that would be way cool. 😉
C.A. Our desire to communicate is often met with our lack of precision in our presentation. We will seek to do better and ask for your prayers to that end.
In regard to precision, your thought of:
This statement find it’s lack of precision not in the presentation, but in your listening. I have made this specific statement, “it’s not perfection, but direction” in each of the first three weeks of the series. I also reiterated this during the hours spent at your home in an in-depth discussion regarding the nature of saving faith.
Therefore, I would ask that you look over the teaching guide, listen to the message, and then ask questions regarding any item not clear. It seems very clear that conclusions have been drawn that were given a reasonable amount of clarification and yet still looked at as not clear. Our desire, as Pastors of the people of Grace Fellowship is strong, however, those who listen to the teaching must also have a strong desire to know what we are teaching and not what you may think we are teaching. I also encourage attending the Wed. morning men’s Bible study since this is when we unpack and dialogue over the teaching from the previous week. I would think that this would be the first line of inquiry you could take yet have not seen that resource taken advantage of. I hope my position and our position is becoming clearer.
Also, your statement immediately following the previous one cited was:
Again, the specific statement was in reference to the Apostle John is not giving anyone wiggle room. How else would you describe:
John will not let “anyone” dismiss unloving actions regardless of who they may be. It seems there were teachers who were claiming to be spiritual, yet refusing to love, as Christ commanded, those for whom they were to be caring for. Also, this was spreading so that the question of who was and was not truly saved was spreading. I don’t think the issue is about your disagreement with me, nor Grace Fellowship, but the Apostle John. I would encourage you to study the Scripture and not form a belief structure absent of hard study of the passage. I can try to think logically about the passage and how it may fit with what I believe, but that is a backwards approach. Let the force of God’s Word mold your thinking, not your thinking to mold God’s Word. There is no replacement for hard study and prayer seeking God’s face for His truth.
C.A. We love you and your family. I would be remiss if I did not encourage you ask you to pursue a future, regardless of what body of believers you lock arms, with a teachable spirit seeking to learn from others who have a more seasoned Biblical framework and experienced life.
All the best my friend,
Dan
Please call if I can be of any further help.
Hi Dan.
I am sure by now everyone has figured out that we just can’t run away from you guys. You all are too genuine, loving, and challenging to deny! The Body of Christ lives at GF!
I think we are way beyond all this now personally, as both Mary and I understand after Ken called me yesterday as he took the time to go over this again and again, and he tried to dig out the answers we were looking for and to understand where we are coming from. He was very successful. Have you spoken to him?
You saying “not perfection but direction” multiple times, then going to I John and talking about “no wiggle room” is just the point of why we were confused and conflicted. Both Mary and I. Simultaneously. They seemed to contradict each other, and we were concerned about that and what it meant, and we now understand after much discussion and personal study. Yes, much personal study. I promise!
We did not get the point that you were addressing the context and not an absolute to us directly in that particular passage. OK? We overreacted out of ignorance. We got it!
We do not read the extra notes and I am sorry for that. I would guess I am not the only one. There is no time for that before your teaching, and we are listening intently (really) to everything you are saying, but we must just be dense. Please forgive us. I was only making a suggestion. Having those extra notes emailed a day or two before would be incredible IMO.
The Wednesday morning bible studies are great, and I have come a few times, but it is very very difficult with my line of work as I am frequently up until 2am or later many weeknights dealing with customer issues remotely or traveling very early with little sleep. This morning is a good example as I was driving to Valdosta at 5:30am and got back tonight at 8pm. I think about the men every single Wednesday, and have tried a number of times to get up on a couple hours sleep, but just could not, and fell back into bed. Ask Mary. I long to be there. I don’t think I will be able to “take advantage” of this additional resource very often, and again forgive me if you feel this somehow demonstrates a lack of commitment to learning and understanding the overall teaching at GF in it’s fullness. I just can’t.
You wrote…
“…a teachable spirit seeking to learn from others who have a more seasoned Biblical framework and experienced life”
First, we are not leaving GF after speaking with Ken yesterday morning. Not sure if he understood that, but I thought he did.
Not sure what this statement is trying to imply about me based on this situation, nor do I want to dwell on this too much as we have made some positive steps the past two days.
I am greatly encouraged, Mary is going to the women’s retreat after I asked her if she would please still go, and we plan to be there Sunday. Maybe I am misunderstanding your meaning again? ;^)
If I being pre-judged about my personal study lackings, not having a strong desire to understand (then why have I even cared to ask all this?) for having misunderstands, concerns, and questions out of ignorance, then I really don’t know what to say. That is why you are there for us right? We are simply not theology students or bible scholars and some of these concepts are new and sometimes hard to us as you are teaching them. We know only what we know, and feel we understand the foundational truths very well, but new insight is always good. Some of these questions need quick answers and “Grace Talk” is too long to wait. You are teaching and we are learning. That is the point. 🙂
Questions and issues in the GF blogs and “one on one” discussions with our leaders are vehicles for us to use freely and to get answers and perspective right? I sure hope so.
With that said, I will say that some of the personal discussion and comments might not be as appropriate on a blog such as this and would have been better via personal email or even a phone call such as with Ken. But I did want to respond directly to the public comments and opinions made above.
Maybe it would be best for this particular blog to be deleted, but I have no problems with what I have written as all of the comments by everyone are without question educational. It just seems like this blog is a big list of personal emails to me, and my replies. 🙂
But still, thanks for the insights an clarifications on all this.
We got it loud and clear! And we agree with it all about 97.3%. I know you said that if someone agreed with you 100% on everything you would be really worried about them. See, I do listen!!!
We love you Dan and all the leaders. All of your love toward us is felt and appreciated. Thanks for sticking with us through this, and we will see you Sunday. That is real “persistence” from you guys. Call anytime and will be glad to spend 94 minutes or more with you. (Length of Ken’s call to me) 🙂
I am glad to hear that our interactions have helped you process the varied issues relating to gaining assurance of one’s salvation. I look forward to fruitful discussions in the future on more Biblical truths. Grace Fellowship is a place for people to ask questions and explore the truths of our Great God. If we are to spread God’s fame we must know who He is; and knowning who He is involves digging into God’s Word and discussing issues with a desire to know Him.
I am excited and encouraged that you will be at church on Sunday. Since you don’t pre-read the guide, I will give you the teaching truth that is the only hope for anyone to know God: “If I believe in Jesus, I can be confident that I am a Christian.”
It’s the Apostles final truth that exposes those who were make-believers from those who were true followers of Christ. What could be greater?!
See Ya’ this weekend.
Dan
Oh you can be sure we will pre-read the guide and every left, right, top, and bottom, even make sure that nothing is hiding on the back, or in invisible ink from this point forward, during the announcements or just before so we won’t miss the introduction to your teaching. Sorry Kevin! 🙂 We will try to listen to announcements and read the notes too!
Ok, now for a little more insight to my very first comment.
William and Maggie is a song by Charlie Peacock that is about someone that is going through a time of intraspection – opening up the windows and letting the wind blow through.
It’s not a “you need to live for Jesus” kind of song but more of a poetic vingette of someone’s life. William remembers the passion of his youth and things he thought he believed but he realizes he now feels nothing.
My favorite lyric of the song is:
Read all the lyrics here
Dude…that’s some heavy lyrics…