Wow! 36 comments and counting. Must have struck a nerve.
Let me say that I appreciate Rose for wading in and sticking her neck out. There’s alot of passion flying around on both sides of this one and we may never find a satisfactory middle ground. But we may come to understand one another better and in so doing, perhaps learn a few things.
Hugh, I very much appreciate your clear articulation of a position I share with you. Well said. On the other hand, I’m uncomfortable with the thought that we might “miss” something. I just keep going back to idea of sola scriptura and with that principle, I simply cannot find examples of God speaking and the recipient was either too busy or somehow too foolish to recognize the voice as God’s. This is the bottom line of my original post.
Many claim to hear from God. Many have amazing anecdotal evidence. The problem arises when one claims to know *how* to hear from God (as if it’s some kind of art). The grand pooh-bah of this was Henry Blackaby–a wonderful man who dearly loves the Lord. Sadly, I think Henry is misguided in some of his use of Scripture. Luther warned that the Scripture could be fashioned into a wax nose and he was right.
In a former church of which we were members (not the last one!), the pastor made the claim that God had told him that the church would receive a specific piece of real estate by a certain date. The date came and went and the pastor did too. In a more rigid time he would have been stoned to death. This was a guy who told me that he had heard from God countless times. We also had a guest speaker at this church who spoke of a woman [I think it was Cori Ten-Boom (“The Hiding Place”)] having literal conversations with God where she would stand and look up at an angle and say “Really? Do you think so?” and then she’d pause and say “Okay. I’ll go there”, etc. as if she were in a running conversation with God. I wouldn’t have a problem with this woman being a prophetess. Who am I to say God can’t speak to people? It was when the preacher said that we should strive to have the same kind of relationship with God as she so that we too could converse with God in such a way that I cringed. This sentiment preaches great and alot of folks say, “oooh, mmmmm, yeahhh” but I don’t see how it’s biblical. This is actually closer to the Pentecostal notion of the second blessing where the “anointed ones” (a/k/a those who have achieved a higher level of spiritual consciousness) are able to perform miracles and speak in tongues. This is also not far off from the heretical gnostic teachings of the 2nd century that set certain elite Christians apart from the rest who didn’t share in the greater spiritual knowledge.
All this to say that we need to be careful with this subject. Can God speak? Yes, in a variety of ways (yesterday he sounded alot like Kevin Hosner). But does he speak in a clear, unmistakable voice to everyone who will but “listen” for his voice? I have to say, no. The next logical question is “does he speak to some in a clear, unmistakable voice?” Apparently, the anecdotal evidence suggests that yes, he does–to prophets. Does he speak in vague, mistakable impressions? Again, apparently so. I propose that just as the believer, filled with the Spirit, can receive illumination of the scriptures, he too can receive illumination of the subconscious. Can one who receives such illumination make a mistake in interpreting scripture? Yes. So you can follow my logic here. Therefore, since I don’t normally speak of God’s illumination of the scripture as God speaking to me directly (like my wife speaks to me), I think of it as God speaking through the words of scripture. Perhaps we can agree that God speaks through the thoughts of our subconscious.
Hey Ken – when you wrote
The way the paragraph is constructed, I’m not sure what you are drawing the contrast against – was it something I said that gave you that discomfort, or was it something in the tenor of the whole discussion?
Hugh,
Not specifically aimed at you even though the words could easily betray my mea culpa.
I was trying to use my discomfort to launch into a discussion of the Spirit’s role in illuminating the subconscious.
Thanks for the discussion everyone! Been kinda busy, will jump back in when I can.
Wow! A lot has been said, and I actually agree with much of what you wrote Ken. I still encourage people who have never “heard from God” to take the time to ask and listen, but agree that if we ever “miss” Him, He is faithful to “find” us. Though I must admit that I thought for a long time that hearing from God was an experience common to all believers, and was surprised to find otherwise.
If hearing from Him is the gift of prophecy or one of discernment, then I can see that we will not all have the same gifts. If Paul was thankful for the gift of tongues, I will praise God for the ability to hear Him and know His voice. It is through studying His word and listening to His voice that He has given me comfort, corrected my thinking, taught me, and rebuked me. In short, what He does through scripture (2 Tim 3:16 – 17), He reinforces as He speaks to me.
Eric, I cannot explain exactly the mechanism through which He speaks other than He speaks to me in my thoughts. Neither can I explain how the two visions I alluded to earlier were brought about. I can say that the thoughts and visions are distinct, separate from my own thoughts and sight.
The first vision happened shortly after I had confessed to a co-worker that I had gossiped about him. It was hard for me to admit my sin to Darryl, because I had been witnessing to him and my behavior did not reflect my Lord. Darryl took pity on me, because I was truly a mess. I could not stop crying and was so mad at myself, because he kept saying it was okay. I wanted him to know that it wasn’t okay, and that as a Christian I am supposed to represent Christ to him, but that I had failed miserably.
In the end, Darryl got the message, and a burden was momentarily lifted from my shoulders. Just as I thought the worst was over, I experienced my first vision. I was walking down the hallway to my office, when I heard a couple of younger engineers in a cubicle outside my office relaying the story of what Darryl had said to me. This actually was not happening, but it felt very real. The next thing I saw was Darryl coming from a perpendicular hallway that ran in front of my office right toward the conversation. Darryl would have been able to hear them mocking him just as I was hearing it, and I was paralyzed. I felt sick to my stomach and helpless. The vision ended, then God told me that even though Darryl now knew what I had done and had forgiven me, he could still be hurt by my careless words. Though I cannot explain how the scene played before my eyes, I can remember it and have recounted this to a few of the students at our school to emphasize the gravity of gossip – it tears down the character of another and does not glorify God nor build up His church.
The second vision was just as vivid and life-like. A friend came to me complaining of some real issues that Brande had and proceeded to tell me that I really needed to work with her to overcome these shortcomings. I remember becoming very incensed by the audicity of this friend. Who was this person? How well did this person know my daughter? Did she know her better than I knew her? I remember thinking, “I know that she has shortcomings, and I am doing what I believe is best!” The vision ended and God told me, “Danny is My child. I know him, and I always do what is best.” I was dumbfounded. I had been going to God in prayer about Danny, so God allowed me to experience what David must have experienced when Nathan allowed him to become incensed about someone who was doing something that paralleled his own sin. Who am I to tell God what He needs to do with His own son? How dare I question how He parents His own, because though I try to do what is best, I am fallible. He is not.
Can I explain the mechanism? No. I can only say that when He talks in my thoughts (with or without visions), it is always clear to me that it is Him. When I had the vague recollection of Jesus teaching His disciples something about shaking the sand in judgment, I knew God reminded me that Satan knows scripture, too. That is why I promised Him that I would go home and read the passage in context.
I agree that it is dangerous to say ‘God told me’ when He didn’t, but will not shy away telling others what God has told me. I do not believe that I need to convince others that God does indeed do today what He did with the early church, but neither do I feel led to keep how He chooses to interact with me a secret.
I do enjoy the interaction, and do not take offense to opposing points of view. It helps me to know my brothers better, and it encourages me to know that we have members who seek truth and search scripture. I have to be cautious that as a finite being, I do not think I am able to grasp how my infinite God thinks or works, but am comforted by 1 Cor. 13:12.
I had no idea you’d started a blog. Welcome to the wonderful world of having your thoughts misinterpreted by everyone with an internet connection! As if there wasn’t enough pressure before. I never heard back from you on the whole DA VINCI CODE thing, but I’d love to meet for coffee sometime soon. BTW, if you want to check out my blog it’s here:
http://www.johnalanturner.blogspot.com.
The comments that follow are addressing comments made under the original ‘God told me…’ blog.
Hugh,
I thought that I was pretty much done with this discussion until I was reading through Proverbs (call aloud for insight – Pr 2:3). I was calling for His insight into John 10, since I believe that God had given me that example in an earlier discussion. I believe the passage is meant to convey that Jesus is one with God, that He is the Way to God, and that He draws those who are His own, because we are familiar with Him (as opposed to the Pharisees who claimed to be familiar with God). I also believe that in that respect (He draws those who are His own), you do ‘hear from God’ through the Holy Spirit opening up the Word of God through your reading and through the preaching of the Word of God. I believe that all believers grow through the study and application of His word.
Where it is apparent that we differ is that you do not believe that God’s ‘voice’ can still be heard audibly or through dreams, visions or thoughts. It has been suggested that what David and I experience is a gift of prophecy. My bible defines prophecy as “communication of the mind of God imparted to a believer by the Holy Spirit. It may be a prediction or an indication of the will of God in a given situation.” We know that prophecy is the work of the Holy Spirit and that He gives spiritual gifts to each believer, just as He determines. Please read 1 Cor. 12 – 14, and ask God if in your reading of 12:31 and 14:1 and 19, He has in mind to impart to you the gift of prophecy. You had said that it would be quite a thrill to hear from His voice in the way that David and I have heard Him, so why not ask Him? As I’m writing this, I do remember asking God for the gift of prophecy after reading 1 Cor. 14 – what better way to acknowledge that what Paul instructed the church at Corinth still has meaning for the church today. I praise God that He even brought to my remembrance my petition for the gift of prophecy. What’s funny is that I did not recognize His answer to my prayer until now, since I did not recognize hearing from Him as the gift of prophecy and had forgotten about the prayer.
If Paul was writing to a worldly church, would it make sense for him to encourage them to seek anything accept what would build up the church and glorify God? We still live in a worldly society, and can still benefit from seeking the greater gifts that build up the body of Christ and glorify God in using the gifts as outlined in 1 Corinthians.
Eric,
back to the subjective vs. objective nature of God’s voice:
If you’ve ever been wrong about something and someone else comes along to share truth, you know that, even though it did not come from your own thought, you were able to recognize your error in thinking and embrace the truth. Our problem is that we can accept something as being true, when in fact it is not. What keeps the believer from discerning the truth from a lie is the Word of God and the Holy Spirit within us. When God speaks the truth about a situation that I have viewed differently, I cannot be subjective about it, because it is a different thought than my own. I have to exercise 2 Cor. 10:5 in order to truly reflect Christ to others, so it pleases Him to make Himself known to me in my thoughts. I do not hear a gentle whisper, but His delivery in my head is gentle (though I want to say that I don’t believe He is always gentle in dealing with us – I just can’t give you an example of a time when He was not, so I guess I can’t say that with surety).
As for God being incapable of getting His message to the hearer… Mark 6:5 seems to indicate that God withholds making Himself known when unbelief prevails and He is not honored. I had to admit that I was putting Him in a box to fit the ‘god’ with which I was comfortable, but in order to know Him, I had to ask that He tear away any misconceptions I had about Him and how He operated. We honor Him most by accepting Him as He is (not the way we feel He should be) and trusting Him to do things His way (not the way we would choose to do things). If we need to get up and not fear, would it be that we fear being deceived by the enemy; that some how the enemy could deceive God’s elect and get them to not follow Him? That is legitimate to a point. We are finite beings, but we serve an infinite God. Our limitations should drive us to the Word and seek Him in prayer, but not cause us to fear hearing from Him in our thoughts.
What keeps the believer…
should read, “What helps the believer discern truth from a lie is the Word of God and the Holy Spirit within us.”
Hey Rose, thanks for the thoughtful discussion.
I want to clarify something that I’m ashamed I didn’t get across in any of the earlier posts. You said:
The way you’ve stated it there, I have to affirm that I do believe that God’s voice can be heard however God wants it to be heard – audibly, through dreams, visions, thoughts, or anything else.
The problem isn’t the mechanism – how God communicates. The problem is tracing the message back to its source. How do you know it was from God?
Maybe a real-life analogy would be helpful.
Consider the crazy scandal that took Dan Rather down at CBS News – he presented letters supposedly written by one of President Bush’s superiors during his time in the military. A very cursory examination of the letters showed them to be forgeries, and bad ones at that. Dan Rather lost his job because (all spin aside) he wanted the letters to be true, and his passions clouded his judgment to the detriment of himself and everyone close to him professionally and politically.
Now, to apply that to this discussion: we might want the communication to come from God (even though we might not like the content that communication) because nothing is so precious as intimacy with our Maker. Like I said, it would be a thrill!
So how do we keep our “ears open” for what God might “say” — by whatever means — and still retain the good judgment we need to authenticate the message when it arrives?
Rose, I just can’t go with you on the Mark 6:5 association. Apparently, most of the people in his hometown were, what we would consider, “unbelievers”. They did not trust in Jesus to be who he really was–the Messiah.
This seems to me to be far different from a believer who seemingly fails to hear God speak to his thoughts because he hasn’t asked God to speak to him or because he isn’t fully “tuned in” to God’s ways.
You say, ” We honor Him most by accepting Him as He is (not the way we feel He should be) and trusting Him to do things His way (not the way we would choose to do things).” With this I totally agree. My question is, how do we know HOW to accept him as He is and how do we know HIS WAYS?
This is why I am so dogmatically biblical in my approach. I just don’t see any biblical precedent for the popular notion of “listening for the voice of God”. It seems to me that if God is going to speak to me, I WILL hear him and I WILL understand and I will make no mistake that it is, in fact, the voice of God.
Again, this does not mean that I deny that God speaks. I simply doubt the popular teaching that God WANTS to speak to me and that I need to invite him to the microphone.
Ken, I agree that ‘if God wants to speak to me, I don’t need to invite him to the microphone,’ and I also agree that if God wants to speak to a believer, we will hear Him. However, I do not agree that all believers recognize the ‘voice of God’ as His ‘voice’, (even if it is audible – see what follows) especially if it is not audible.
In 1 Samuel 2:18 – 26, we learn that Samuel was ministering before the Lord growing in stature and favor with the Lord and with men. Though Samuel loved and served God, when he first heard from God (ch 3), he had to be told by Eli that it was God speaking to him. The problem wasn’t that he wasn’t hearing from Him, but that he didn’t recognize what he was hearing was actually God speaking to him. I believe the context of Samuel not ‘knowing’ God (1 Sam 3:7) is in the sense of now having a direct experience with God as we are talking about hearing from God directly (I believe this, because my Bible refers back to Exo. 1:8, so I’ll leave it up to your knowledge of the Hebrew translation to correct me if I’m wrong). That is why I encourage believers to not only invite God to talk to them, but listen for Him to reply. I don’t claim that you cannot be a believer if you don’t hear from Him directly, but why not invite Him to speak to you directly in whatever way He chooses?
However, I do believe we can close our minds to hearing Him to our own detriment by not acting upon what the Spirit encourages us to do or doing something He is telling us to refrain from doing.
Additionally, if a believer doesn’t believe God is still in the business of doing great and awesome things, he/she misses out on a lot of what God is already doing around him/her.
Hugh,
I was looking for ‘supernatural’ in place of ‘sensational’ because ‘sensational’ carries a connotation of feeling. Even though supernatural acts do invoke feelings of awe, in our discussion about science, I was referring to the use of it to explain the natural while God is supernatural. ‘Sensational’ used to describe Him or His acts seems less than adequate, because many things that are sensational are not supernatural (i.e., rollercoasters).
As to your reply above, God’s voice always is in-line with the ‘clear’ will of God as we heard about in church today. (My examples I have already used are perfect for this illustration; the experiences included witnessing to an unbeliever who was willing to listen to truth, not gossiping, respecting my husband, and witnessing to strangers.) Here is one that is more in-line with a ‘cloudy’ will of God. I was complaining that there were two Christians in my household who were ‘allowed’ to watch a type of movie God had cautioned me not to watch (a ‘cloudy’ for some people but definitely ‘clear’ will for me), He told me, “You can watch the movie.” Though He said nothing more, He left me with the impression that if I wanted to fill my mind up with unfruitful things when He had other things that He could fill it with, I was free to do so, but that being able to discern Him from the world meant spending time with Him in prayer or in studying His word instead of being amused by a movie.
Sorry this is long… in short, when He talks, He is guiding me to walk with Him and deal with others as He deals with them at a time when I may be focused on Him or wanting to do the right thing but really missing the mark.
Rose, you know how much I appreciate and love you so I hope there is no offense taken in this running disagreement. You have offered quite a bit of “food” for thought and it has been great.
I am still troubled by one course of thought that you are pursuing. You wrote:
“Though Samuel loved and served God, when he first heard from God (ch 3), he had to be told by Eli that it was God speaking to him.”
Keep in mind that Samuel was only a child and was under the direct authority of the prophet Eli. This narrative is more of an indictment on Eli and his loss of the prophetic office than one on how to recognize the voice of God.
You also wrote:
“I believe the context of Samuel not ‘knowing’ God (1 Sam 3:7) is in the sense of now having a direct experience with God as we are talking about hearing from God directly…That is why I encourage believers to not only invite God to talk to them, but listen for Him to reply.”
Rose. Samuel was a prophet. For prophets, it is normative to hear the voice of God. This has been my point all along. I think we set forth false expectations if we teach that all beleivers have the potential to hear from God if they only “listen”. From nearly every piece of anecdotal evidence that I’ve heard of, the purported “voice of God” is still, small, and mistakable as to its origin. This is not what the prophets experienced.
You also wrote:
“I don’t claim that you cannot be a believer if you don’t hear from Him directly, but why not invite Him to speak to you directly in whatever way He chooses?”
I have no problem if a person desires the gift of prophecy for them to ask of God. What I do have a problem with is the popular teaching that if you will simply stop speaking all the time in your prayers, and spend more time listening, then God will speak to you.
As I have stated before, there is no biblical precedence for this.
You wrote:
“Additionally, if a believer doesn’t believe God is still in the business of doing great and awesome things, he/she misses out on a lot of what God is already doing around him/her.”
Rose. This is perhaps my greatest concern with the line of thinking you are pursuing. When you say things like this, you appear to be making a veiled attack on those who disagree with your premise that God speaks to believers (in the way you have set forth). In other words, if I don’t accept the notion of “inviting God to speak to me” and “listening for his voice” as normative for the believer, then perhaps I don’t believe that God is still in the business of doing great and awesome things. This is an ad hominem which really has no bearing on the discussion at hand.
I will state my postion as clearly as possible:
God does not speak directly to everyone. God does speak directly to those whom he chooses to reveal himself in this way. When God does speak directly to (adult) individuals, his voice is clear and unmistakable. In 1Cor. 14, Paul says that the Corinthians should eagerly desire the gift of prophecy in order to edify the church. If there are prophets among us, they should be using their gift to edify the church.
Ken, because I believe this is part of spiritual warfare, I instructed my daughter and students as follows:
As believers, we have our own thoughts, we have an enemy that would tempt us with wrong thoughts, and we have the Spirit of God Who leads us with righteous thoughts.
I have done this and continue to do this, because if we cannot recognize how the enemy operates and equip believers to understand how the Spirit combats the lies of the enemy, then we will continue to fall for lies instead of filling our minds with the truth of the Word of God. Obviously, I believe in equipping believers with the Word of God, so they can recognize Who God is and how He operates in order to know that anything outside of Who God is and how He operates is of the flesh or the enemy. I also believe that when the Jesus said that the Spirit will teach us and remind us of everything that He said, He meant it for every believer, not just those with the gift of prophecy. I never identified how God communicates with me as anything gift except for the gift of the Holy Spirit and that is why I believe(d) that all Christians have the same ability to hear from Him. Perhaps I would be more inclined to believe that I have the gift of distinguishing between spirits in this sense.
That being said, I lead into Samuel at possibly 12 or more years of age. I recognized someone who knew and served God but did not know when it was God Who was speaking clearly to him. I work with students 12 years of age and above. I tell them to study the Word to know God and how He operates, and I tell them that He does communicate with us. I can’t imagine not sharing with them how God chooses to talk sometimes in our own thoughts (especially because I believe that is how Spirit teaches and reminds us of truth). I still have a strong desire to make known the fact that God does choose to talk to believers this way – sure, not all believers. Do you find fault that I desire to share this with students? I never make it a prerequisite to true Christianity nor shame those who have never ‘heard from God’.
It appears that we do still cross paths. I’m trying to figure out where we begin to diverge. I don’t believe that I have proposed to believers to sit quietly all the time to listen for God just in case they missed Him before. You say you have no problem with a believer desiring the gift of prophecy, but isn’t that the same as inviting God to speak to you and taking time to listen?
I hope no one feels attacked by my firm belief that we all miss out on what God is doing around us when we forget that He is still in the business of doing great and awesome things. We get so focused on the physical/temporal that we miss out on the spiritual/eternal. For example, as I pray throughout the day, I may thank God for giving me my heart’s desire and He shows me a truth about how He uses that desire in my life to bring Him greater glory. Another example, is when He calls me to do something that moves me out of my comfort zone only to reveal that in moving me He would bring others to know Him more. I wish I was better at articulating how awesome it is to see things from His perspective. My desire in the comment of ‘if a believer doesn’t believe that God is in the business of doing great and awesome things…’ still stands – though not to condemn but to encourage us to look for God working in our lives and in the lives of those around us. We miss out all the time. 🙁
I agree with your position clearly stated in your last paragraph, but am not sold on your qualification that all adults who God speaks directly to know that it is Him speaking – especially when we have teachings about our own ‘intuition’ or a ‘sixth sense.’
Lastly, I have been offended by your remark about the ‘line of thinking’ you believe I am pursuing. Perhaps to ask what I meant by that comment would have revealed that it was not a veiled attempt to attack those who disagree with me about God speaking to believers. I honestly love you as a brother and continue to disagree with you on points without judging you nor attacking you or your motives.
By the way, Ken, even though I was offended by your remark, I would never claim that I have not done the very same thing to someone else. I believe that God wanted me to make sure I told you that, so you know that I’m not leaving the blog on a sour note.
I am learning and growing from the exchange we have available on this site!
But it is past my bedtime, so I enjoy a short comment from me for a change!!
Rose, I truly apologize for any offense taken at my suggestion that your statement was a “veiled attack”. I use the word “attack” in the sense of a tactic used in debate. I didn’t intend to portray you as vicious or hateful. If this is what you understood me to say, please accept my apology.
I may have assumed you “guilty by association” since I have had this conversation with many believers and several of them have used the exact same words as an ad hominem “attack” on my position.
My great fear is that believers get caught up in looking for God “in all the wrong places” (reminds you of a song…haha). I have good friends who have embraced neo-Pentacostalism and when we discuss the validity of the miracles they claim to be experiencing, they rarely use the Bible in proper context–if at all.
Please understand, I don’t see YOU as doing this but since this is a public blog, I try to speak in generalities.
Finally, what do you mean when you say:
“especially when we have teachings about our own ‘intuition’ or a ‘sixth sense.'”? Whose teachings?
Okay I’m tracking again – just trying to find a good place to jump back in.
I’m pondering the ideas of how our culture influences our views and what Ken mentioned earlier about God speaking through our subconscious.
We westerners like things that can be quantified – numbers, reports, effectiveness. When something fails we want someone/something to blame in our pursuit of perfecting the system. Examples: Airline Safety, Fulton Co. Court Security, etc. Our faith is in numbers, calculations, probability, technology, and “facts”. (Carbon dating is factual isn’t it?)
This ties into God speaking through the subconscious by asking the question “Is it possible to neglect, ignore, or ‘tune out’ our subconscious?”. I don’t know but I imagine the cook and the servent waking up in jail with Joseph and carrying on the day, business as usual, crediting their wacky dreams to the peppers they ate the night before. Would we even think to look for God in such places?
Ken, I see your distain for preachers promoting the idea of, “if we all tuned into WGOD fm then we would all know His will for us”, I just want to explore the idea of “missing God” a bit more.
Apology accepted. I do believe your heart is to dispel false teaching and can appreciate that wrong attitudes need to be addressed as well, so please feel free to question what I mean by anything that seems to come across negatively.
I believe even Christians can bring wrong teachings into the church, and, for some reason, some women in the church have been told that they have ‘women’s intuition’ about things that I believe are really Spirit-inspired. When God gets the glory for the guidance He gives through the Holy Spirit, He is made more famous. However, if He does give direction and we like the credit of having this ‘sixth sense’ or ‘intuition’, then we get the glory and not Him. I do believe the Holy Spirit directs and guides Christians more than some Christians know.
(I didn’t know that your question about O’Reilly’s show wasn’t on the blog, so the answer to the question is ‘no.’ Anything interesting?)
Thanks Rose. I believe we find common ground in the following areas:
1. The Holy Spirit directs and guides Christians in ways beyond mere ratiocination.
2. The enemy attacks our thoughts therefore it would be foolish for Christians to believe that Satan has more power to persuade than God the Spirit does.
3. God receives the glory when we attribute our “good” choices to his sovereign guidance of our subconscious thoughts.
4. Occasionally, God speaks to some in their conscious thoughts as well.