What a powerful way to catch someone’s attention. Three little words: “God told me…” As we heard this morning, these are the favorite words of the false prophets and false teachers. These three words are thrown around with so much abandon in churches and among Christians today. There are entire branches of the Christian book industry devoted to convincing Christians to spend more of their prayer time listening instead of talking.
I read recently in a Christian publication an essay where the writer claimed to have heard God tell him to remove his $100 bill from the offering plate after he had already put it in. The writer proceeded to tell of the dirty looks he received from his fellow congregants. His assertion was that he was simply being obedient to the voice of God. The writer went on to tell of more messages he received from God ultimately paying off the story with a supposedly God-led encounter with an old widow in Waffle House who eventually received the afore-mentioned $100 bill.
What struck me about this story (and dozens more I’ve heard just like it) was the lack of assurance that this was really the voice of God. The writer was never quite sure. He even went to the wrong Waffle House in search of the soon-to-be recipient of the $100. He wrote of “feeling led”. He wrote of the voice of God nearly being drowned out by other “noise” because, after all, we all know that God speaks in a “still small voice”.
But does He? Look at 1 Kings 19:9-18. This is the passage with the “still small voice” (“gentle whisper” in the NIV). Does the writer of Kings intend for us to come away with the idea that God’s voice was a gentle whisper–barely audible, ethereal, mistakable, and more felt than heard? Is this whisper even the voice of God or is it something else? It appears to me that when God chose to speak to Elijah, there was NO question in Elijah’s mind that God was speaking to him. In fact, it appears that whenever God spoke directly to individuals in the Bible, they knew, beyond a doubt, that it was God and they knew what he was saying.
I’m NOT saying that God won’t speak to people anymore. I’m merely pointing out that the biblical record of God speaking directly to people portrays a clear, unmistakable voice or dream where the details are fully divulged. No prophet ever claimed to “feel led”. No other occasion in the Bible ever describes God’s voice as a “gentle whisper” (from what I’ve found). I’m open to your correction on this. What say you?
It seems to me that if God wanted to speak, he’d be able to do it with clarity. I also think if God ever spoke to me with that kind of clarity I’d have to change my pants.
I would also add that people seem to think that you must take anything labeled as an “utterance from God” with an uncritical mind — to do otherwise would be to “doubt God.” How pathetic! Which honors God – to make sure you are following him, or to risk (at best) taking his name in vain?
And to the guy who takes the “still small voice” thing as justification for lifting $100 from the plate — why not use Jesus’ technique for paying taxes instead? Why is the “still small voice” normative, but not this one?
P.S. Did you ever notice that just about every time an angel shows up, the first thing he says is “Fear not?” That’s more along the lines of what I’d expect as an introduction to a personal communiqué from the Almighty.
Hmmmm, have you ever had a personal conviction or a burden? You don’t know why but you know you need to pray for someone. You don’t know why but you feel compelled to give to a particular ministry. You don’t know why but you feel compelled NOT to give to a particular ministry.
All I can do is confirm that it doesn’t violate scripture and go with it – or, to my shame, not go with it (James 4:17).
I don’t know whether it is “God speaking to me” but I do know that it is a personal conviction. From what Paul says, how we react to our personal convictions has a great deal to do with our relationship with God and others.
I find that people tend to lean toward extremes in this topic – one person credits God’s communication for every thought that crosses their mind while the other person depends completely on logic in fear of their conscience encouraging them to do something “foolish” – not exactly a biblical example either.
I try and find balance by making sure my convictions are true and then hopefully have the courage and obedience to act on them.
It’s precisely because you have to make a great effort to make sure your convictions are true that I would avoid using the terms, “God told me…” since you may find, someday in the future–as I have, that some of your deepest held convictions are actually false.
I don’t know if I want to go there again, but I would like to say that God does speak to me through His Spirit. He encourages me. He guides and directs me. He points things out to correct my thinking. I admit that He is silent a lot, but I thank Him that I do know His ‘voice.’ I have not encountered an angel who prefaced his message with, “Fear not!”
What I have experienced is a thought (not my own) that told me to go to Birmingham. I thought that is was because we were new and I was looking for a job, so I took my resume and headed for the city. Unfamiliar with the city, I believe He directed me to the BellSouth tower where I parked. (I remember the thoughts included where to turn even.)
It was there that God led me to a homeless man to share His love for him. His name was Earnest and the story is pretty wild, but I know that God sent me there for him, because I argued with His logic, tried to prove to Him that what He was asking me to do didn’t make sense, and yet came away in awe of the lengths God will go to in order to bring His message of love to a homeless man through a perfect stranger.
God has had me write letters to someone who I had no idea was calling out to Him from prison.
God led me to involve a middle-school Sunday school class to the Ronald McDonald house to provide meals. God prompted me to provide a birthday party for one of the patients at the Children’s Hospital after meeting his grandparents that same night. God scheduled my visit to Atlanta to take place on his birthday and scheduled an additional practice for the middle school choir on that same day, so we had to reschedule his birthday party for the day before. We celebrated the birth of a terminally ill child the day before his actual birthday, because He knew that He was taking Stephen Peacock home that very night. God informed me of Stephen’s passing through my mother-in-law who lives in Panama City, Fl miles from where he died in Birmingham, because Stephen was resident of a town close to hers. As I shared our whirlwind weekend with her, she hit me with the news of his passing on the same night we visited. Stephen died shortly after we left the hospital.
Through the study of His word, we can recognize His voice over that of the enemy. I have heard the enemy use scripture only to have God lead me to check out the scripture reference in context. This was during a time when God was calling me to be a witness to a man at work who was into sorcery.
God still speaks to us and will move us to make a difference. Are we willing to listen? I admitted above that I have argued with Him, but I am learning to shut my mouth and follow. He leads me in paths of righteousness for His name’s sake. Even though I walk through the valley of death, I will fear no evil, for He is with me; His rod and His staff, they comfort me.
I do not believe that I am special. I believe that He speaks to us all. My challenge is that we act on the promptings God places to make a difference, and acknowledge that it is He who leads us to make a difference.
I still must profess that God told me to go back to find Earnest. God told me to go to Ronald McDonald house to provide meals. God told me to check out scripture when I was willing to give up on Larry. He even said, “Aren’t you glad that I didn’t give up on you as easily as you are willing to give up on Larry?” And, at a time when I was lamenting that I had big thighs, He told me that He loved my legs and He made my legs. I quickly repented and agreed that He had indeed blessed me and I am grateful for the legs He gave to me. I could go on, because He helped me parent Brande and shows me how to be a better helpmate to Danny.
I agree that there are false prophets, but I disagree that we cannot know His voice or hear from Him directly. I do not believe that anything I shared above is a deeply held conviction. I believe it is the way God chooses to interact with me and with a great many others.
Sorry for the length, but I would hate for anyone to miss out on knowing that we can hear from God personally. We talk to Him all the time, but do we take the time to listen as well? Ask Him if He has anything to say to you and do not fear. He that is in you is greater than he that is in the world. I believe that in hearing from Him and following Him as He leads, brings abundant life. It causes us to come out of comfort zones, and put greater trust in Him.
Rose, I knew that if I broached this subject that I could come across as a “stick-in-the-mud”. On the other hand, we are a church which claims to follow “sola scriptura” as our source of authority. What I see being discussed are, from a biblical perspective, two very different phenomena.
The first is visions, dreams and angelic messages. This is a biblical phenomenon that few outside of Charismatic circles are willing to embrace as normative experiences for Christians (normative meaning that which is common experience to all believers).
The second is an impression or a “burden” as many people describe it. The only biblical example I can find of this is Acts 15:28 where the language of the text appears to indicate some possible doubt about what the right decision might be (“it seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to us not to burden you with anything beyond the following requirements…). In this case the Apostles and elders made a decision which they believed was led by the Holy Spirit but it was never characterized as “God told us…” The biblical accounts of God speaking are always clear and unmistakable.
I deny NEITHER of the two phenomena above. I believe that God can and will communicate to us in either way. I’m just trying to avoid using language reserved for the first type to characterize the second type.
Does this make more sense?
The question still remains about the exact nature of the Acts 15:28 statement. Did they receive an “impression” by which they “felt led” to the decision? Or did they go about a rational process of determining their decision based on what they deduced to be the right thing to do?
Perhaps it was somewhat of a combination of the two.
Hmmm, I’m still thinking about my next full response until then…
Should we reserve thanking God for our food for times when He has miraculously sent birds to bring it to us? I mean, it was mostly us that worked for the money that bought the food that we purchased from the grocery store up the street. God didn’t come down and set the food on our plates as we sat and anxiously awaited dinner to be served. ;^)
No doubt the phrase “God told me” is abused and we should be VERY careful when using it, but the Christian life is a relationship with God and one of the fundamental parts of any relationship is communication. All that to say, if true, convictions, prophecy and divine thoughts* are from God.
I offer 1 Thes. 5:16-22:
There are plenty of verses warning about speaking for God. Not saying you are one, but this is for those that rule it out all together – essentially putting God in their box.
*Studying the idea of God giving you divine thoughts that are not your own.
I’m just trying to avoid being misleading.
I could say that God cooked me up some tasty spareribs and sent the VP of whatever at Coke to feed them to me (I did eat spareribs at the VP of whatever at Coke’s house today). Although in the sense that God is the ultimate provider of all things, this is true, it would be misleading for me to use it in the same sense that the author of Kings does to describe a miraculous event in Elijah’s life (being fed by Ravens).
If I say, “God healed me of my skin lesions” I could be misleading someone into thinking that I may have received a miraculous healing when in fact, my poison ivy cleared up through the God-provided immune system and lots of God-provided Calamine.
Do I believe that God heals? Yes. Do I believe that God uses what we call “natural” means to do so? Yes. Do I believe that he bends natural means to produce miracles? Yes. Do I call scabs miracles (they are pretty cool–instant band-aids)? Not in the same way that I’d call the blind receiving their sight from Jesus’ touch a miracle.
When we say “God told me…” or “God told me to tell you…” this is language reserved for prophecy, dreams and visions in the Bible. Unless I was convinced that I was receiving prophecy, dreams or visions as direct communication from God, I would avoid saying, “God told me…” I am more comfortable saying that the biblical evidence (the teachings of Jesus, his apostles or prophets) leads me to conclude that I should do X.
So how do you classify:
1 Now the word of the Lord came to Jonah son of Amittai, saying, 2 “Go at once to Nineveh, that great city, and cry out against it; for their wickedness has come up before me.”
A) Prophecy
B) Dream
C) Vision
D) Impression
E) None of the above
On another note, most of the “how to be lead by the Spirit” stuff I found online was more about “how to make benefitial decisions with God” with statements like “if things don’t work out, be flexible and you may need to practice listening more.
What a joke. What I find more interesting is that Jesus himself, “was led by the Spirit in the wilderness, where for forty days he was tempted by the devil. He ate nothing at all during those days, and when they were over, he was famished.” Not exactly the thing people generally want to “be lead” to do.
Since the text of Jonah doesn’t specify *how* Jonah received the word of the Lord, I’d have to say “I don’t know”.
If I had to speculate, I’d say he received a word of prophecy. The Jews have traditionally considered Jonah to have been a prophet.
I’d say that he had a legitimate reason to say “God told me…”
I guess what I’m wondering is what you define prophecy as. Most people think of it as predicting the future but I wonder if it includes divinely inspired thought – just as the scripture was given to us.
I think this is going to lead to a discussion about what it means to be “filled” with the Spirit. Looking at the account after Jesus’ baptism, scripture says that Jesus, being filled with the Spirit, was lead by the Spirit out into the desert to be tempted.
There are varying thoughts on how we interact with the Spirit in Christian circles. Some say He comes and goes, some say we always have Him but in different degrees and temperatures (see the old chocholate milk example), while other say we are fully filled with Him from the point of salvation.
What stand point are you coming from?
Prophecy would by any message directly delivered to God’s people. It is not limited to future-telling. Thus the old adage, “prophecy is foretelling or forth-telling”.
I’d say we are filled with the Spirit at regeneration. I interpret the biblical witness as revealing greater/different manifestations of the Spirit depending on the designs of God for that particular target audience.
In the book of Acts, you can see how the signs and wonders manifestations kind of matched the gospel’s spread from Jerusalem to Judea to Samaria and to the ends of the earth.
The idea of being “filled with the Spirit” has to be flexible enough to cover the normative experiences of the everyday Christian and the spectacular experiences of those whom God uses to demonstrate his power.
Greg Koukl puts it really well when he says “you cannot exegete experiences.”
It seems to me that you can ascribe to God the things that have happened, and give glory to Him for what he has done. On the other hand, ascribing words (“God told me,” “Thus says the Lord,” etc.) to God without substantiating evidence seems like taking God’s name in vain.
The fact that Rose has had experiences such as she described is a wonderful thing — but they are only wonderful because the evidence has borne them out.
On its face, a claim someone makes to “hear from God” (however you’d like to characterize it) says nothing about whether God actually initiated it. It could be, like in Rose’s case, that there’s nothing to suggest it didn’t come from God, because some great things happened as a result. Or, it could be that it’s Benny Hinn all over again, just making stuff up and ascribing it to God for his own (Benny’s, not God’s) aggrandizement.
Obligatory disclaimer: I’m not saying everybody who claims to “hear from God” is on par with Benny Hinn. I am saying you run that risk, though.
Here’s another idea: what if, in your testimony, you leave out the detail about what you think (perhaps correctly!) God said, and simply recount what God unquestionably did? Does it detract from the substance of what actually happened? Does it detract from God’s glory? Do we value a thing because it has some esoteric, supernatural aspect to it? Or do we value it because it brings glory to God and manifests his kingdom on earth?
Another thought, maybe a tangent:
I just thought of this in the car and I haven’t searched the Scriptures for a normative pattern on this, so please don’t take this uncritically. It seems to me that when God wants to take credit for the word he’s given, he says something like, “Tell them the LORD told you…”
Assuming that’s true – let’s suppose I believe I’ve heard from God. Should I presume to tell others, “God said (X),” if (X) does not include, “Tell them God told you?”
So what “substantiated evidence” did Jonah have as he was directed to go to Ninevah?
I think Rose and I are dealing more with the idea of personal guidance from the Holy Spirit than a message to the masses that is to be inserted between Jude and Revelation. It’s more about how we interact with the Holy Spirit on a daily basis.
For me (that’s for Eric), I have heard His voice – it is gentle and it is also undeniable. I think a mistake that people make is expecting/demanding a conversation or something. In some cases the Spirit has “communicated” exactly what I should do and in others He remains silent. That gets back to what you were saying about valuing the esoterical.
If the Spirit is in us and the Spirit guides us then He MUST communicate in some way – making the phrase “God told me” valid on a personal level.
We must also be careful not to “exegete” the outcome of following the Spirit. Here’s an example:
A friend of mine was offered an opportunity at a new job. He really felt God’s leading to take the position, so he did. A few months later he was fired.
The typical reaction is, “What?! Did he really hear from God? He must have misunderstood something!”
Turns out that once he got there, he discovered the owner, a professing believer, was doing some shady, under the table accounting. My friend had the moral courage to call him and his faith on it and was promptly fired.
If God can lead his Son to die, then surely He could lead my friend to be a messenger of truth to someone that needs it – the job just got in the way.
Yes, there are many dangers of abuse and error with access to having the Holy Spirit guiding us, but you can’t just rule it out all together due to lack of evidence.*
*This doesn’t apply to prophecy about the future. If God tells you something is going to happen – it better happen.
Here’s a good paper by Don Whitney on a sound approach to this sort of thing.
Defining the Boundaries of Evangelical Spirituality
BTW, I don’t suggest you can’t rule it out altogether! The evidence I was appealing to is evidence after the fact. Until there’s evidence, you’re walking by faith that may or may not have been properly placed in what might or might not turn out to be a “word from God.” Therefore, I would be loath to attribute something to God until time bears witness to His hand in the matter.
That was confusing. Here’s what I meant by the “BTW” sentence:
I am not saying that you can rule out the working of the Spirit altogether.
I’m just curious, what Biblical instruction do you base the Spirit’s guiding us on? It might help for us to take a closer look at the passages that speak to the issue.
The more I study, the more this seems like a Trinity kind of thing – the Scripture never says “The Father Son and Spirit are three separate yet one God-head” but it’s still fundamental truth. There isn’t a chapter about the Holy Spirit 101 either.
I start from the example of Jesus being lead into the desert by the Holy Spirit (Luke 4:1).
Paul’s journey was guided by the Spirit in Acts 16.
Just as Rose was comforted about her legs by the Spirit so was the early church in Acts 9:31.
The Spirit tells Peter exactly how to behave in Acts 10:19,20.
The Spirit gives specific simple instruction to Philip and then pulls a “beam me up Scotty” in Acts 8.
In the OT, the Spirit delivered specific instruction to individuals as He came and went. God’s Spirit was given to Saul and later taken away (1 Sam. 10:6; 16:14). The Spirit gave David plans for the temple (1 Chron. 28:12). The Spirit inspired prophets to speak (Num. 24:2; 2 Sam. 23:2; 1 Chron. 12:18; 2 Chron. 15:1; 20:14; Ezek. 11:9; Zech. 7:12; 2 Pet 1:21). Now that we have the Spirit in us (1 Corinthians 6:19, Romans 8:9), I assume the same characteristics remain.
You also have Jesus describing the Holy Spirit as a Counselor/Helper (John 16:7) as well as a Teacher (John 14:26).*
I read Hugh’s article and I think it’s addressing something a bit different. It sounds like the lady the guy referenced is trying to talk/act herself into being more spiritual.
*I also read several articles claiming that John 14:26 was specifically directed to Jesus’ contemporaries (the people he was talking to at the time) so we can’t claim that verse as believers and shouldn’t expect to be taught by the Spirit. Seeing the context of what else He was talking about and that Paul and most of the early church wasn’t around for it either, I tend to dismiss that idea.
P.S. Thanks for forcing me to study more!
Before I step into the fray on this one, a few caveats…
First, I have no intention to speak to what God can do. He is perfectly free to communicate to His creatures in whatever manner or frequency He desires.
Second, I have no intention to speak to what God has done. Each person has individual experiences. Experiences and remarkable stories are as plentiful and varied as there are individuals in this world—be they Christians, Mormons, Buddhists, or what have you.
My aim is to discover what the Bible teaches that we should expect in our interaction with God. I think this is vital because our expectations will shape the way we interpret the circumstances as we find them.
One of the best examples of this can be found in certain Pentecostal circles where it is taught (based on the example in Acts 2) that speaking in tongues is the (not a) sign of regeneration. Because the expectation is there that this behavior is necessary to show conversion, guess what happens. People speak in tongues.
I think that the same thing will happen with “hearing the voice of God.” If we are taught that if we are true followers of Christ we will hear Him speaking to us, then what happens? We will hear Him speaking to us. The problem is that what gets interpreted as Gods voice is so subjective that it is mostly a matter of interpretation. So, it is even more susceptible to the power of suggestion.
With all of that said, I’d like to turn so some key passages that speak directly to the role of the Holy Spirit in the life of the believer. But that will have to wait until a bit later. Someone is telling me to get back to work.
My comments above about hearing from God personally is a challenge, not to reveal who is a real believer or not, but to encourage believers who have never taken time to hear from Him in prayer to inquire of Him. I am not suggesting that if a believer never hears from God in prayer he or she is any less spiritual than one who does. I do not hear from Him in prayer every day. In fact, He may be silent often.
Eric, I can’t remember when I first heard God speak to me. I don’t believe it was the power of suggestion nor was it teaching I heard in church. You wrote that the problem is that what gets interpreted as God’s voice is so subjective, but I would ask how you would know that?
Jesus said that His sheep listen to His voice and that they follow Him in John 10:27. In John 10:4 – 5, He details how sheep follow the shepherd, because they know his voice. Yet they will by no means follow a stranger, but will flee from him, for they do not know the voice of strangers. Then He identifies Himself as the good shepherd in verse 14, and goes on to say that His sheep will listen to His voice in verse 16.
After several weeks of witnessing to a man who was into sorcery, I was becoming frustrated with him. I believed that he was only amused by the faith I had in Jesus. When the thought came into my head to shake the dust off my feet, I vaguely remembered Jesus telling His disciples something about shaking the dust off their feet as a warning to those who rejected God’s message. I felt a little relief. I was tired of witnessing to Larry, and the enemy knew it. But God did not let me off the hook. He immediately reminded me that Satan knew scripture too, so I promised Him that I would look up the verse in context. It was on my way home that God specifically asked me, “Aren’t you glad that I didn’t give up on you as easily as you are willing to give up on Larry.” When I got home, He highlighted in my reading that if anyone was unwilling to listen to the words I spoke to testify about Christ, I could shake the dust off my feet. Larry listened and was even intrigued, so I shared with him the very next day how I almost was ready to stop witnessing to him. He was very apologetic when I told him that some of his comments blasphemed God. He said he never intended on offending God, and even asked that I never stop sharing with him the things God was doing in my life.
My point is that God puts a check on our own spirit when the enemy is speaking to us. Just as sheep will not follow a stranger, God warns us inwardly of false teaching.
The danger is not in the subjectivity of God’s voice, but in the ignorance of the believer to His word or even our reliance on hearing ‘a word’ from Him as an indicator of our own spirituality. Another danger is in not being ‘ever-filled’ with the Holy Spirit through quenching His Spirit (not doing what He is leading us to do) or grieving the Holy Spirit (doing something He has told us not to do). I have done both and could start a whole other discussion…
Visions, Ken, may not be normative, but God has used two in my life to either rebuke me or teach me the possible consequence of gossip. These lessons seemed very real and each caused different emotions within me that He used to leave lasting impressions. Your comment did not indicate to me that you do not believe that Christians outside Charismatic circles experience them, but I wanted to share this in case there are believers who do not believe that God still uses the first ‘phenomenon’ to communicate with us.
oooo…
“but I would ask how you would know that?”
that sounded ugly! Eric, I mean how do you know that what I hear is subjective? When God speaks to me He is clear. I am reminded as I review my own comments that I may not always be clear, but when He speaks to me, He does make Himself clear. I do not profess to always understand why or even how He will work out certain details, but I know that if I don’t act I may never know either at all.
It’s late. Hope to see you all later on this morning!
Okay. Last blog for the day for me. (I have to limit myself to checking blogs once a week or this would get out of control form me.)
Eric, I didn’t address subjectivity at all, but perhaps need to let you know that I view truth as objective, outside of me and not subject to my bias. When God speaks to me, His thoughts are not my own neither are His ways. I can discern between my personal opinions and His truth when He reveals it to me. In fact, when He speaks I have not always believed that what He was asking me to do would actually bear fruit, but have learned that I do not have to see the end from the beginning as He does. I just need to obey.
Did I make any sense in explaining how I do not view God’s voice as being subjective and not up for my own interpretation? He does allow me to think and even express my opinion, but I, like Job, have had to learn to shut my mouth, because God is God.
Rose – it seems to me that John 10 (“the sheep know his voice”) is addressing itself to election, not guidance. A couple of points stand out:
v. 3-4: “The sheep hear his voice, and he calls his own sheep by name and leads them out. When he has brought out all his own, he goes before them, and the sheep follow him, for they know his voice.”v. 9: “I am the door. If anyone enters by me, he will be saved…”v. 16: “And I have other sheep that are not of this fold. I must bring them also, and they will listen to my voice. So there will be one flock, one shepherd.”
Put another way, if you are following Christ, it means you have “heard His voice” and you are counted among His sheep. It seems to me that the language of “hearing his voice” is part of the literary device (comparing himself to a shepherd). Furthermore, verse 6 identifies the foregoing as a “figure of speech,” so it seems like taking it literally is ruled out by the scripture itself.
I could be wrong… but I have no desire to be. If I’m in any way being unfaithful to the Scripture, somebody please correct me. Part of me wants to take it literally – it would be quite a thrill to think I could expect to hear his voice in this way – but I just don’t see how the Scripture supports that conclusion.
In support of Hugh’s point, John 9 ends with this…
John 10 appears to be an extended response to the Pharisees question about who is a child of God and who is not. The context of the passage points to the issue of the effective call of Christ to the elect. This would be a strange place for Jesus change topics and start address Christian living.
As far as the subjective nature of distinguishing the voice of God when it is expressed in this way, I guess I would have to ask… What is the mechanism that God is speaking through? The way I understand it, it is not a voice (audible), dream, vision, or appearance of an angel, but it is an impression or a feeling. How would it not be subjective to determine the source of the impression?
Maybe I’m misunderstanding the mechanism of that we are talking about, though. Some specifics on how the communication is made and how it is objectively distinguished from our own thoughts and conscience would help me see it better.
Okay, I agree that John 9 and 10 are dealing more with a “call” to salvation but with all the examples I listed above, why do you say that it stops right there? Think back to when you “decided” to follow Christ (I say “decided” because that’s what it is in our experience of this existance). It was not your own thought, it was divinely given to you. It was a “feeling” that you knew was objectively right to act upon.
Again I will disclaim that feelings are dangerous ground and should not be tread upon lightly. It could also have more to do with the gift of prophecy and discernment as to why it seems “easier” for some and not others.
As to the question of “If God speaks don’t you think He would do it with clarity?”, I am also studying the story of Gideon and Samuel. Did Gideon doubt God or was he just confirming what he had been told? In the example of Samuel, he heard an audible voice that wasn’t instantly identified as God – just some tangents.
Looking forward to what Eric has to say about what we should expect from the Spirit. :^)
One more question on the subjective/objective nature of this sort of communication. If the receipt of this type of communication is objective and God is capable of making Himself clear (and heard), then why the concern for Christians not hearing God’s voice? I’m not aware of any example in Scripture where God was incapable of getting His message to the hearer. The normal pattern seems to be that the recipient of the message normally has to be told to get up and not fear.
Now, on to David’s case for the support of this type of communication from God to man in the Scriptures…
I agree that we must do some systematic work to synthesize our theology of the Holy Spirit out of various passages, much like we do to discover the doctrine of the trinity.
One difference between the two searches for truth, however, is that the trinity is a description of an unchanging God. If you look at the Athanasian Creed you will see truth propositions describing the nature of God. This is what we call an indicative—it indicates the way something is. Hearing the voice of God, as it is characterized in our discussion, falls more into the imperative category–that is, what we should do (namely listen and obey). This is a search for what is normative or what we should expect from God as a general rule.
In the indicative case, an example may be sufficient to make a point. For example, “Jesus prays to the Father; therefore, Jesus is not the Father” is a valid conclusion.
In the imperative case, an example is not sufficient to make the case. The Bible is full extraordinary events. In fact, many of them make it into sacred Scripture for the very reason that they are extraordinary. For example, in Numbers 22:28, God spoke through Balaam’s donkey. It would be invalid to take that example and say that we should expect God to speak through our pets (or vehicles—depending on how you view it). This is not to say that God cannot speak through our pets—only that we cannot use this passage to teach that He will do it.
Most of David’s texts are examples of God supernaturally guiding people to accomplish His purposes. Every one of the recipients was a prophet or apostle of God. Even if example we a good way to distill out the general case, these wouldn’t be the folks to use as models.
In addition, it’s not clear to me that any of these communications was accomplished through inner impressions.
Next up, I’ll try to address the passages that speak directly to the role of the Holy Spirit.
Since you probably wouldn’t accept any examples outside of Scripture (I have many from trusted friends), it’s kind of hard to find the biography of Joe church member of the First Church of Acts in the Bible. ;^)
I am thinking this may have to do more with gifts. Just as tongues is a gift (and some rule it out based on the same excuse you gave – that was just for the early church and Apostles) so is prophecy. Some people I know just have a tendency to “pick up” on certain things while other’s have never “heard” a thing.
Example: An old friend of mine felt God was telling him to find the Mustang parked in a certain parking lot and tell the man in it that suicide isn’t the answer and tell him about Jesus. He obeyed, found the car, told the man and shared the Gospel.
Is that an everyday example? No, but I’m not arguing that it is. I’m just saying that when I’ve heard Him, it was an undeniable “impression” that in some way worked toward accomplishing His purposes.
Yes, I score pretty high on Prophecy/Discernment when I take Spiritual Gift tests. :^)
David:
I can’t speak for Eric but as I see it, the point is not that “it was just for the early church and Apostles,” but rather that we shouldn’t take the experience of an apostle to be what we should expect for ourselves.
I know there was a smiley on your first remark, but when you say “you probably wouldn’t accept any examples outside of Scripture,” are you suggesting that Scripture is not the authority on these things?
Even at that, though, it’s not about simply “accepting examples outside of Scripture” – or in it! There is context to be applied to the examples whether they come from Scripture or personal experience.
So far as I can see, there’s nothing to suggest what happened in the Mustang anecdote was not from God. There’s nothing in any of the anecdotes recounted on this thread to suggest they were not of God. But what does that prove? That God works in peoples’ lives? That God uses people? That God is real?
What did you expect?
Should it surprise a follower of Christ that God is alive and active in the “real world” – as if God inhabits an unreal world of fantasy and imagination? I hope not!
The trouble comes in when you “play the ‘God said’ card” for any reason other than His undiluted glory. Tell me what God did all day long – I’m all ears! But when you start putting words in God’s mouth, well, you could be right… but forgive me if I put you to the test to see if you are taking His name in vain, deluding yourself and/or others, seeking glory for yourself, or worse…
On the other hand, I’m not going to tell you you’re wrong in your claim that God said something – unless it fails to align with Scripture or what reality bears out in time.
And as to “impressions:” why conclude they are God’s personal utterances to us? Isn’t it at least as likely that such impressions are the result of other factors?
Did the guy in Ken’s opening story have an “impression” that he should take money from the offering plate, or was it just a self-fulfilling prophecy, given the way he told the story?I had an “impression” that I believe could have been from God when I resolved to propose to my wife – but let’s face it, I was looking for the guts to pull the trigger and wham-o! Here came a word from God. Was it God’s word? Maybe. Was it the result of obsessing over the question for days? Maybe. But I could only entertain the idea that it could have come from God because the discernible realities of our relationship aligned with the truth God’s word teaches about marriage.On the flip side, did any of us ever have an “impression” that turned out to be wrong?
It’s going to take some steep convincing to get me to regard “impressions” as reliable indicators of God’s whisperings of his will. Are they a factor to consider? Sure. Are they enough? No way.
So where does this get us? God has lots of means at his disposal to get stuff done. He could choose to speak a word to somebody, or he could simply move us around like pieces on a chess board. Why should any of it surprise us? Why should any of it seem esoteric or odd?
Here’s my answer: because we are so often sure we’ve received a word from God, and we are so often wrong. When somebody actually can recount a story where it wasn’t wrong, well, that’s a story worth writing down and telling everybody about. Either way, it’s not as if God has revealed something new about himself: we knew he is active in the “real world” before these verifiable stories came to our ears, and the stories do nothing to change that truth. When God’s purposes are achieved in the “real world”, it should bring praise and glory to his holy name – not surprise us, nor bore us, nor lend credence to what the “hearer” of God’s word has to say.
Don’t get me wrong – I’m not trying to be a skeptic. I’m trying to honor God by seeking clarity about what we should ascribe to God, what we should not, and what we should leave as an open (but unsatisfying) question.
To the question of the role of examples and experiences…
Imagine a friend who you trust comes to you and tells you a story. He describes how he was watching TBN one night on a whim. Somewhat out of character for your friend he follows Paul Crouch’s instructions and writes a check for $250, rubs it on his sore neck, places it in an envelope, and sends it to TBN. Within almost exactly the time period promised, your friend’s chronic neck pain goes away. For the first time in years, he feels great.
What do you do with your friend’s story? You are in no real position to question it. It’s his experience. He wouldn’t make it up. All you can do is join him in thanking God for the relief he’s gotten.
Now, what if your friend, realizing that despite your reconstructive knee surgery (it’s a story, work with me:)), your knee is still quite sore, especially just before it rains, tells you that you should write a check, rub it on your knee, and send it to Paul Crouch?
I’m pretty sure that you would want to see something from God’s word that indicates some promise from God that backs up the claim that sending the check will be effective for you. It’s not that you doubt your friend’s experience. It’s just that you don’t build doctrine (and order your life) on people’s experience.
How about this one… What if we find a devout Mormon with a guidance story similar to one of the ones recounted above where there is no way that it could not have been God guiding him because the way things worked out never would have happened by chance? Would you change your view on Mormonism and assume that Mormons must be regenerated because your friend showed evidence of having the Holy Spirit resident in him? Somehow I doubt it.
OK one last one, this time from personal experience. When I was an infant of a Christian (back in the days when I prayed the Sinner’s Prayer every day waiting for it to take and make me into a better person without the desire to sin, as I had been promised), I had just started an attempt to expand my consulting practice (Yellow Pages ad and everything). I had received my first check from a new client. I managed to lose the check somewhere in my house. I was way too embarrassed to go back to the new client and tell them that I not competent enough to get a check to the bank, and I was quite anxious about it (I was in my 20’s back then—everything seemed like a bigger deal than it was). Anyway, I sat on the couch, and I prayed that God would help me find the check. I immediately got up and walked straight over to my cheesy mirrored mica bar (it was Florida after all:)), reached around behind it, and picked up the check.
It’s a small thing that I will remember for the rest of my life. But what does it tell us about what to expect from God? Nothing. Is He gracious? Might He answer any prayer we ask? Yes. Does this mean that I don’t need to take better care of checks in the future because I can always ask God where they are? I don’t think so.
Yes. Just because Peter walked on water doesn’t mean that we had better not learn to swim if we are going to jump off the boat.
I will continue this thread on a new blog.